Tell me about the Series 1 Bumper "Override" Bar

[geezer]

It seems that the word "Factory" means different things to different people, and may change depending on the situation. But, like most of the other times we've been here, I think it most strongly implies a direct link with the manufacturing plant that the cars came out of, and the company ( in Japan! ) which designed, engineered and commissioned that manufacturing process. I don't think NMC USA is the same thing at all.......

Couldn't agree more. If I may, I would like to interject a few thoughts on this topic. Lets view this from the perspective of a corporate structure. It is true that anything done at the factory (which should refer to only a manufacturing facility), is done so by directives from Nissan’s Headquarters. Nothing outside of any manufacturing facility can be “factory approved”. It has been my experience that the decision making process doesn’t flow in that direction.

The responsibilities/liabilities of anything added, modified or altered on the vehicle after being certified to meet the required safety standards of the export market, in this case the US, were assumed by the NMC in the USA. That is to say, once the dated conformance tag was attached, the factory’s job was done, with no further input.

I can understand how the NMC in the USA was perceived as an all encompassing entity in itself, but in reality took direction from Japan in regards to all matters. I certainly would think this included what options or accessories would be available from Japan. This proved to be not much, not to say, without good reason. NMC was left to set up their own accessories line as well as a performance parts catalog and authorize dealers to install the parts. Any parts installed by the dealer required a NMC Accessory Installation Report to be filled out in triplicate. I have one of these forms, although for a different model, as well as a copy of a directive from NMC’s Technical Communication Department concerning unauthorized modifications. These documents seem to relegate the responsibility of accessories & modifications squarely on the shoulders of the dealers under the tutelage of the NMC in the USA, not the “factory”.

I find the parts catalogs interesting. They were works in progress that were never completed. The assignment of Nissan part numbers for parts that essentially double as and started life as aftermarket parts is an interesting subject in itself. The lines of jurisdiction are divided in terms of model and market as well, affecting part number assignment.

These are great topics to explore and discuss, but not worth arguing about because of a disagreement of terminology.

Edited February 14, 2010 by geezer

[26th-Z]

...I think it most strongly implies a direct link with the manufacturing plant that the cars came out of, and the company ( in Japan! ) which designed, engineered and commissioned that manufacturing process...

Strongly implies indeed! Let's just look up the word factory in the dictionary. "An establishment for the manufacture or assembly of goods".

[Carl Beck]

The "Factory Authorized" is a bit of a misnomer as well. In this case, "factory" means Datsun USA not Nissan Ltd.

Carl,

Many, many thanks for your kind remarks. I love you too.

I understand where you are coming from with the warranty conversation but the relevance to this conversation escapes me.

Chris: The relevance comes from your earlier statement quoted above. "In this case, "factory" means Datsun not Nissan Ltd."

The muddled thinking is that somehow Nissan Motor Co. in Japan is a different company than Nissan Motor Co. in USA. That is what seems to have lead you to state that Nissan Motor Co. located in the US - had the ability or authority to offer their own non-factory Datsun "warranties"

I simply pointed out the fact that Nissan states that "Nissan Motor Co. Ltd / Nissan Motor Co. Japan and Nissan Motor Co. in U.S.A. are interchangeable - ie one and the same - and thus can be shorted to simply "Nissan". It was in fact Nissan that made the point quite clear that the entire Nissan Corporation stood behind the Limited Warranty - not as you stated "Datsun USA"

The point I was trying to make was that Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. had optional equipment available in Japan in 1970 that does not coincide with the optional equipment published on your web site - optional equipment from 1972 on.

An interesting point that could easily have been interjected without the incorrect "misnomer" diversion.

The URL that I listed is clearly marked "Factory Authorized Accessories For The 1972 DATSUN 240-Z" and the subsection is clearly titled "Accessories For The DATSUN 240Z" - both of which were relevant to the original questions Tony ask.

No attempt was made to make it "coincide" with any other data. It is there simply to share with anyone interested or with anyone that had not see the original brochures from 1972.

I thought we had been down this road before and, believe me, I'm just as concerned about this muddled thinking as you are! Here is the options page from the 1970 dealer brochure. Considering your remarks about the equality of the two corporate identities, do you not find it strange that what was available in Japan was not published in America? And what was published was sourced from a separate manufacturing group?

Chris

No - I don't find it strange at all. In fact it was quite common practice for imported cars in the 60's and 70's.

The economies of mass production of a specific model were applied commonly to export models in the 60's and 70's being imported into the U.S. Building one model, one way, with a specific set of "standard" equipment yielded the highest production numbers with the lowest unit cost. Common practice by VW in the 50's and 60's - followed by Nissan years later.

Do you think that Nissan Shatai Koki produced the foot rest, the radio, the fog lights, the side strips, the vinyl roof cover etc etc.? They were all produced by different OEM's supplying Nissan in Japan. No different than an OEM suppler here in the US supplying Nissan.

As I understood it from and earlier conversation with Kats and others - the accessories not standard on a specific model were installed as customer options - at the Nissan Dealer in Japan.

In Japan or here in the US - the accessories were supplied by companies outside of Corporate Nissan {known as OEM's}. In Japan and here in the U.S. the accessories were installed by the Nissan/Datsun Dealers. Nothing strange about that - it was just common practice.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[26th-Z]

Chris: The relevance comes from your earlier statement quoted above. "In this case, "factory" means Datsun not Nissan Ltd."

The muddled thinking is that somehow Nissan Motor Co. in Japan is a different company than Nissan Motor Co. in USA. That is what seems to have lead you to state that Nissan Motor Co. located in the US - had the ability or authority to offer their own non-factory Datsun "warranties"

I made no such statement. Read my posts again. Accessories offered by Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. were not the accessories offered by Nissan Motor Company in the USA. Nor did they interchange. What or how a warranty worked has nothing to do with this conversation. The use of the word "factory" insinuating Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. is simply incorrect.

I simply pointed out the fact that Nissan states that "Nissan Motor Co. Ltd / Nissan Motor Co. Japan and Nissan Motor Co. in U.S.A. are interchangeable - ie one and the same - and thus can be shorted to simply "Nissan". It was in fact Nissan that made the point quite clear that the entire Nissan Corporation stood behind the Limited Warranty - not as you stated "Datsun USA"

You are the one talking about warranties and trying to make the disjointed connection. I have no argument with your warranty illustration, but it doesn't have relevance in this regard. What I am simply trying to point out is that there is a peculiar nuance with regard to accessories marketed in North America under the Datsun brand name. That they are not the same as as the accessories published and marketed by Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.

An interesting point that could easily have been interjected without the incorrect "misnomer" diversion.

The URL that I listed is clearly marked "Factory Authorized Accessories For The 1972 DATSUN 240-Z" and the subsection is clearly titled "Accessories For The DATSUN 240Z" - both of which were relevant to the original questions Tony ask.

You could have correctly described the accessories as "Nissan Motor Company in the USA Authorized Accessories". They are clearly not Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. authorized accessories as I have pointed out and referenced. Clearly your "factory" reference to Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. is in error.

No attempt was made to make it "coincide" with any other data. It is there simply to share with anyone interested or with anyone that had not see the original brochures from 1972.

Yes, no attempt was made and that seems to be the source of this muddled thinking.

No - I don't find it strange at all. In fact it was quite common practice for imported cars in the 60's and 70's.

The economies of mass production of a specific model were applied commonly to export models in the 60's and 70's being imported into the U.S. Building one model, one way, with a specific set of "standard" equipment yielded the highest production numbers with the lowest unit cost. Common practice by VW in the 50's and 60's - followed by Nissan years later.

Do you think that Nissan Shatai Koki produced the foot rest, the radio, the fog lights, the side strips, the vinyl roof cover etc etc.? They were all produced by different OEM's supplying Nissan in Japan. No different than an OEM suppler here in the US supplying Nissan.

Many Original Equipment Manufacturers supplied components for the primary construction of the cars. Those items listed and sold by the manufacturer would be considered original equipment. Items manufactured and sold by the manufacturer's distributor would not be considered original equipment. Especially in this case, AMCO was not an original equipment manufacturer. The accessories make no reference to the original manufacturer and they are marketed under a different brand name. Muddled thinking again.

As I understood it from and earlier conversation with Kats and others - the accessories not standard on a specific model were installed as customer options - at the Nissan Dealer in Japan.

And the accessories that were standard got on the car how? Is this going to lead us into a conversation about how the cars were actually manufactured at the dealership? You don't know how or where the accessories were installed, Carl.

In Japan or here in the US - the accessories were supplied by companies outside of Corporate Nissan {known as OEM's}. In Japan and here in the U.S. the accessories were installed by the Nissan/Datsun Dealers. Nothing strange about that - it was just common practice.

FWIW,

Carl B.

So you didn't answer my questions. Of all the Datsun branded accessories you have, do any of them make any reference to Nissan Motor Co. Ltd.? Please post a picture of a Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. identification on an AMCO accessory. Show me that the accessory catalog published on your web site is in fact a Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. document like the warranties you posted.

Which foot rest is "factory"?

Edited February 14, 2010 by 26th-Z

[Carl Beck]

Hi Chris/Alan:

I understand your perspectives and arguments to support them. I simply disagree. As we have now gotten pretty far afield of the original questions that started this thread - I'll stop now and go watch the Games in Canada...

FWIW,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

Slightly tougher crowd here than you get on the CTZCC forum, eh Carl?

[ajmcforester]

Slightly tougher crowd here than you get on the CTZCC forum, eh Carl?

I've been calling my project proses an original restoration with early vintage aftermarket modification, but if I went with their argument I'm original (as long as I don't put the Supersprint exhaust on). In original restoration competition it is not original to have anything that didn't come on the car from the factory (nothing added on after the fact), except with direct documentation that it was sold from the dealer new with these accessories.

Example, us early Z people may or may not fall under original with a vintage AC system, it depends were it was installed. So let say I bought a Z in 71 without AC and I wanted AC so first thing I did from the dealer is drive next door to the shop and had the AC installed, that would not be original. Now if I bought that car and before we finalized the deal the dealership installed the AC it could even been done at the same shop, now it is original as long as I have the documentation that the dealership installed before the first sale.

In the by laws of the rules they define factory, factory options, factory aftermarket options, vintage options, and aftermarket or non-period correct. I'm going to keep the definitions simple and short if you want to read what is what get a vintage competition book, I'd recommend for a Corvette (they are the easiest to read).

Factory is what came on the car from the manufacture's factory that is it.

Factory options are the options that came on the car from the manufacture's factory not added on afterwords, note some cars you can ad some factory options they are listed out for each car, but depends on how well documented the parts are from the factory to what is allowed. Also with some factory options you need documentation that they came on the car.

Factory aftermarket options these are options offered by the manufacture for the cars. So how it is determine if the item is a factory aftermarket option is if it is in the manufacture's parts aftermarket catalog or in the factory parts books for that year only. Example the Datsun version side-stripes is, and not Shelby's version like most people seem to have. For them to be considered original to the car they must have documentation prior of sale.

Then their are vintage options like what came from AMCO, they can be factory endorsed options, but they are not factory under definition. This does not mean that they didn't make the options for the manufacture.

Sorry for not going into more detailed definitions but these sections on this argument in the rules covers abut 40-50 pages.

[26th-Z]

AJ,

The Z community already has rules and the rules have been in place for a very long time. http://www.zcca.org/downloads/ZCCA_JudgingManual_2009.pdf

No need for discussion. Show up in the stock class with air conditioning on your '71 HLS30 and you will get dinked 5 points right off the top. No documentation required. It didn't come from the factory that way. If you would like to go back to my earlier post #30, you will see exactly what options came from the manufacturer.

Christopher Wenzel

Assistant Director, Z Car Club Association

Chief Judge, Z Car Club Association

Edited February 15, 2010 by 26th-Z

[Walter Moore]

Slightly tougher crowd here than you get on the CTZCC forum, eh Carl?

Now Alan, it isn't polite to gloat.

(At least not publicly...)

Yet another lovely flame war started by someone dropping the F-bomb. I guess if it didn't come from Zama it isn't safe to use the word Factory, is that the point?

By the way, now that Zama is just a museum, where do they build the 370Z? I know at one time Nissan had plants in Kyushu and Tochigi, does it come from one of them, or somewhere else?

(I know it isn't made in Smyrna Tennessee.)

[26th-Z]

Nissan manufactures the 370Z in Tochigi.

[HS30-H]

Now Alan, it isn't polite to gloat.

(At least not publicly...)

Walter,

I have nothing to gloat about. It's good that we can have a fair and frank exchange of views and opinions on this forum without fear of being edited, subbed or even deleted altogether ( unlike some other forums.... ) and I believe the bottom line is that we all respect eachother. We don't always have to agree. Some of these topics are subjective, and opinions can differ.

Yet another lovely flame war started by someone dropping the F-bomb. I guess if it didn't come from Zama it isn't safe to use the word Factory, is that the point?

By the way, now that Zama is just a museum, where do they build the 370Z? I know at one time Nissan had plants in Kyushu and Tochigi, does it come from one of them, or somewhere else?

'Our' cars ( the S30-series Z car family ) were made in Nissan Shatai's plant at Hiratsuka. They were never made at Zama. Nissan simply houses their 'Heritage Collection' at the old Zama truck plant, although they are currently working on a proper interactive museum to house it in the Yokohama area.

As Chris points out, the Z34 is made at Nissan's Tochigi plant.

Cheers,

Alan T.

[Walter Moore]

Walter,

'Our' cars ( the S30-series Z car family ) were made in Nissan Shatai's plant at Hiratsuka. They were never made at Zama. Nissan simply houses their 'Heritage Collection' at the old Zama truck plant...

Cheers,

Alan T.

Oh, somehow I mixed that up. In retrospect I should have known better. A company that I worked for back in the 1980's made some equipment for Zama, and it was a truck line at that time. I had never heard of Shantal or Hiratsuka before. I am glad I asked the question.

Thanks,