is 11/71 considered a 72?

[Kathy & Rick]

you guys are going to drive me crazy i have a 11/71 hls30-17645 it is a 71.

I think I am the one who is driving MYSELF crazy, katcarl1! (Some people

must think I have already arrived there; that must be why I am sometimes

called Crazy Rick!!!) What are your real names: Kathy and Carl?--

The VIN number thing has been a fascination of mine, maybe even a

fetish, ever since I first joined my first of many Z Clubs back in the early

'70's. Some Club members had VIN#s 409, 418, 7__, 965, etc., and that

got the whole thing started. It hasn't stopped for 40 years.

I want to thank Ron and Mike once again for sharing their experience,

expertise, and library of resources for my (our) benefit. I hope it is as

enjoyable and educational for others to be involved in a "Z-History"

discussion as it is for me.

So Carl, I can see where your car would be an interesting study because

#17645 should be a solid 12/70 (not 11/71), being between #15320 and

#18124 on my chart. I understand how a car could be pulled off the line

for some corrective reason and reinserted a month later, but this is nearly

a full year difference. That would drive me crazy, too.

Even if it were an 11/70 (not 11/71), I would not know how to account

for a lower VIN# being in production a month BEFORE its contemporaries.

This is where we have to drag Ron back in for enlightenment. It would be

great if Carl Beck should also happen to tune in.

I just happened to roll back to IdahoKidd's post. His #49052 is a nice

solid early 10/71. But his #59995 goes back to my question in the last

paragraph, as that should be a very late 12/71. But somehow it, though

a higher VIN#, somehow found its way into the mix two months early.

This is fun for us guys with white hair. We don't have to worry about it

turning dark again!

All Z Best,....................................Kathy & Rick

[katcarl1]

i looked again at the plate by the door dated11/70 big mistake.your quotes made look again i am restoring the z, only had this car for over 25yrswhat was i thinking.

[Mike B]

The VIN number thing has been a fascination of mine, maybe even a fetish, ever since I first joined my first of many Z Clubs back in the early '70's. Some Club members had VIN#s 409, 418, 7__, 965, etc., and that got the whole thing started. It hasn't stopped for 40 years.

Rick, that is one of the things that has always interested me most about your acquiring your HLS30-00013 in 1976. I think it is pretty cool that when the car was only 6 years old at least a few people were already trying to track down some of the lowest VINs. At that point they were just used cars.

I want to thank Ron and Mike once again for sharing their experience, expertise, and library of resources for my (our) benefit. I hope it is as enjoyable and educational for others to be involved in a "Z-History" discussion as it is for me.

No problem Rick, glad you found it useful. The sharing of information is one of the things I like most about this site. I have learned more about Z's here than anywhere else and (and I continue to learn more each day). That is why this is the best Z site on the internet, in my opinion.

-Mike

[geezer]

i looked again at the plate by the door dated11/70 big mistake.your quotes made look again i am restoring the z, only had this car for over 25yrswhat was i thinking.

In that case, it seems that your Z sailed through the system without any delays.

My Z is a 10/70, HLS30-11730. That's a difference of 5915 from katcarl1's Z built in 11/70 and made me wonder about the daily production rate. I haven't seen any numbers made public covering this era that break the production counts down by day/shift. Rick's records as well as other sources, give us some perspective but wouldn't account for the total worldwide build in a graduated timeframe. Numbers for the year can be determined but I would find it interesting to know the work schedule. Was it a two shift operation, a 6 day workweek, voluntary 7, overtime? These are the bits of information that are hard to come by. I find this data interesting, maybe more than anyone should, because its still in my blood. I've been retired almost 10 years now but previously did a stint as the Production Co-ordinator in the largest automobile manufacturing complex in the world (by production volume), where we put out 1455 vehicles a day, on a 3 shift, 6 and sometime 7 day work schedule. That accounts for my overactive imagination at times guessing what occurred in Japan all those years ago. In comparison the S30 production run was a much smaller operation, but not any less interesting.

Edited April 11, 2010 by geezer

[dclamm]

I believe I read there were about 20,000 series 1 cars produced. My Z was a little over the 10,000th produced, in 9/70, around 12 months after production started. By the time of switch to series 2 in Jan 1971, they made 10,000 more series 1 after mine, in only 4 months. So they really ramped up production in second half of 1970 (10,000 in first 12 months, 10,000 in the next 4 months, three times the volume).

Probably by June or July 1970 they realized the had a hit, ordered up the components from the vendors at 60-90 day lead time, so by late 1970 were able to ramp up production volume. So much is dependent on component supplier deliveries, raw materials (i.e. steel plant production, iron ore from Brazil), storms delaying ship voyage, port strikes, etc... production planning is very interesting but alot of headaches! But everyone likes the headaches of a ramp up, it's the ramp downs that really hurt.

Don't mean to be meandering or stating the obvious, just remembering the good ole days..

[Kathy & Rick]

Hi, dclamm, Rick here. I didn't catch your first name................

You were right on target when you said about 20,000 Series 1 were produced.

The highest Ser 1 Vin I know of is #20425 (1/71) and the lowest Ser 2 VIN I

know is #22021 (2/71). So the break must have occurred somewhere in that

600-unit spread, wouldn't you say?

And now I will corroborate your other assertion about Datsun recognizing that

they had a big hit (6000 Sep 69 thru 6/30/70 and 15000 Jul 70 thru 1/31/71.)

Catch this, and notice the gradual upward trend (very broad figures used):

Sep 69 12, Oct 183, Nov 465, Dec 12 (production curtailed- crank problems).

Jan 70 1048 (carryover from Dec) ,Feb 532, Mar 488, Apr 705, May 1190, Jun

1248, Jul 1529, Aug-Sep Insuf data, Oct 1609, Nov 3104, Dec 2804, Jan 2288

Feb-Mar about 3000 ea, Apr to Aug about 4000 ea. Then the REAL "ramping

up," as dclamm called it, beginning w/about 5000 in Sep. Production seems

to have peaked in late 72 (early in the 73 model year) at about 8000 per,

and then simmered down to a steady 4000+/- till the 260Z began in Aug 73.

FWIW,................All Z Best,....................Kathy & Rick

[dclamm]

Hello Rick, Dave here. I'm very curious how things were done in Japan back in the late 60's and 70's. Had some experience with my job in the 90's and early 00's but that was afer computerization. Just amazes me, how they could handle a 6x increase in about as many months. With no computers. Maybe was part of the plan, maybe had alot of excess capacity. Must have had an army of analysts and purchasing folk to plan that with vendors. And how'd they get the ore quickly to produce the steel since there's not much of it there on the island? Yes, rather intrigued about how they did things in the "old days".

Did you still have to get on a waiting list to get #06289 in mid 1970 (your signature says you are original owner)? Had they filled the backlog by that time? If they didn't ramp up production till late 1970 I would think demand was still outpacing supply even in mid '70.

By the way, the opposite of the "ramp up" was eloquently termed the "glide slope" by my management. Guess that's more socially acceptable than the "nose dive".

Dave

[HS30-H]

I haven't seen any numbers made public covering this era that break the production counts down by day/shift...........

............Numbers for the year can be determined but I would find it interesting to know the work schedule. Was it a two shift operation, a 6 day workweek, voluntary 7, overtime?

When I was living in Japan ( twenty-something years ago now ) one of my drinking buddies occasionally used to bring his father along for the evening. His father had worked at Nissan Shatai's Hiratsuka plant during the period we are talking about here, and had recently retired. He said he used to work extraordinarily long shifts, and grumbled that they were often asked to volunteer to work night shifts on a daytime rate. He described Hiratsuka as being open "24/7", with the only shut downs being for the bigger national holidays and for essential maintenance in certain sections. Deliveries of components and supplies were coming in 24/7 too, and at one point he was involved in warehousing these during the night. I got the impression that it was a somewhat chaotic time, with workers being asked to go the extra mile for little or no extra pay.

One of the big reasons we have so little data about Hiratsuka and the S30-series Z cars from this period is that Nissan Shatai got into a legal wrangle with the unions over pay and conditions. Documents that would have been useful to us as enthusiasts and amateur historians were destroyed or otherwise 'removed' from the reach of the plaintiffs. Fragments of the story are held in private hands, but there's a whole chunk of the story missing. Great pains were taken to keep information from getting out into the public domain.

Rick's records as well as other sources, give us some perspective but wouldn't account for the total worldwide build in a graduated timeframe.

Ron,

As far as I can see, you're the first person to mention the "worldwide build" in this conversation. I'm wondering if others are forgetting that models other than the 'HLS30'-prefixed ones were being made in the same plant, on the same 'lines', at the same time? And we are of course talking about thousands of cars, not 'just' hundreds. These need to be taken into account in any discussion about production volumes and capacity.....

....Just amazes me, how they could handle a 6x increase in about as many months. With no computers. Maybe was part of the plan, maybe had alot of excess capacity. Must have had an army of analysts and purchasing folk to plan that with vendors. And how'd they get the ore quickly to produce the steel since there's not much of it there on the island?....

Don't forget that Nissan Shatai's Hiratsuka plant assembling the S30-series Z range was just one of Nissan's factories in Japan, and one of the smallest at that. The Hiratsuka plant was being extended and added-to through 1970, 71 & 73, so their capacity was increasing to catch up with demand. They did have computers in Nissan at the time, but of course they were nothing like what are in use today.

Nissan were churning out huge numbers of other models in other plants, and had a parts supply infrastructure and chains of suppliers that could cope ( or be made to cope ) with this ramp-up of volume. The production volume of the S30-series Z range might look big if we look at it in on its own, but in the grand scheme of things it was manageable for Nissan, its suppliers, and for Japan. The production figures for some of these other models make the S30-series Z production figures look quite modest in comparison ( 1970-year production of the B110 Sunny alone was three times more than that of the S30-series Z models ). Nissan Shatai's S30-series Z production line workers and their union weren't all that happy with their remuneration though.....

Sep 69 12, Oct 183, Nov 465, Dec 12 (production curtailed- crank problems).

Jan 70 1048 (carryover from Dec) ,Feb 532, Mar 488, Apr 705, May 1190, Jun

1248, Jul 1529, Aug-Sep Insuf data, Oct 1609, Nov 3104, Dec 2804, Jan 2288

As mentioned above, a lot of data has been destroyed or 'removed', but our fellow member Kats did obtain some production data privately from ex-Nissan Shatai staff. Kats posted the monthly production totals for 1969 and 1970 years - broken down by 'Domestic' and 'Export' - on this forum, and we discussed them. If you look for them, you can find them using the site's search engine.

Might not be all that much help to you if you are only interested in HLS30U models though......

Alan T.

Edited April 12, 2010 by HS30-H

[Bonzi Lon]

Its hard for me to beleive that only 12 cars were built in December of 69, and one of them is in a Kansas garage! And was blue/blue no less.

Bonzi Lon

[HS30-H]

Its hard for me to beleive that only 12 cars were built in December of 69, and one of them is in a Kansas garage! And was blue/blue no less.

You don't have to believe it, because it isn't true.

Nissan Shatai's records show that 785 S30-series Z cars were built during the calendar month of December 1969.

688 of them were 'Domestic' models, and 97 of them were 'Export' models.

Alan T.

[Kathy & Rick]

Well, hello again, Alan, how've you been?

Thanks for your insights; I had been in Japan, but well before the 240Z

and its international equivalents were introduced, and for nowhere near

the 27 years of your experience. You always broaden my perspective into

an International one, and that is much appreciated.

Once again I apologize if I created any offense: my mindset keeps gravi-

tating to the American market for the Z Car. It isn't as though I didn't

realize that some had been exported elsewhere, but my experience is

totally in the US market. I hope that I satisfactorily addressed the fact

that what I was discussing was the model HLS30 here in the States.

I'll bet that the info that Kats provided us somewhere else is a lot more

accurate than mine, as he seems to have had some access to the actual

production records in-country. It stands to reason that those would be

more accurate than mine, which were garnered over the years, and to

this day still have gaps between "the lasts and the firsts." Now if I could

learn to use this computer I might be able to find Kats' and Nissan's info!

Lon, thanks too for your observation. Yes, that must have been a pretty

severe problem to have interrupted production of such a hot product. It

looks to me that even though the engine internals were undergoing modifi-

cation, the rest of the car must have still been built and set to one side till

the engine problem was resolved. Because come January 70, 1000+ cars

were released, which is just about twice the Nov 69 and Feb 70 numbers.

And Lon, I agree with you. To see a US 240Z of 12/69 production must be

like seeing one of those rare undersea creatures: few people ever do, and

if they do, they don't know what they are looking at. I had no knowledge

of the one in Kansas. If you could share some of the details by PM........or

on this thread would be better so that everyone interested could "hear".....

According to my records, the only 12/69 that I have ever KNOWINGLY seen

in 40 years of Z-watching is Carl Beck's #587, and even that wasn't till this

past December!!!!!

All Z Best,.....................................Kathy & Rick

Edited April 12, 2010 by Kathy & Rick

[Kathy & Rick]

Alan, thanks for your input. The fact that Nissan Shatai declares a produc-

tion of 785 units in Dec 69 seems to come from a good source.

I have records of numerous pre-Dec cars as high as John Coffey's #502, but

to my knowledge #418 is the highest VIN I remember seeing. As I mentioned

earlier, Carl Beck's #587 is the only Dec car I've ever seen.

Frank's #721, down in TX, is a Jan 70 car that I have not personally seen.

But I do know the owners of #965 and 966 personally and have seen those

cars firsthand.

So I can attest to #418 and #965, which as a WORST (BEST?) case scenario

gives us a POTENTIAL of 547 cars built during Dec 69.

Assuming #502 to be a valid Nov car and #721 to be a legitimate Jan car

reduces that to 218.

VINs for Nov 69 with rare exception shouldn't be higher than #586, consider-

ing that Carl's #587 car is a Dec 69 unit. Thus the possible population

shrinks to 134.

And if there are Jan cars with lower VIN than 721, well...............

All the same, I can still accept Nissan's "production" figure of 688 for US,

even if they weren't totally complete and released till January. It is fairly

easy to visualize 688 units being built in December, the first 12 of which

got on the boat while the rest waited around for acceptable engines. The

VIN having been engraved in the firewall early on, it would not be much of a

stretch to see the VIN and the engine S/N stamped on the R/F strut tower

and L/H door pillar data plates as the last step before heading for the ship,

once the modified engines had been installed.

More simply stated, the 688 figure is probably accurate, but since only 134

or fewer (12?) made it out , the rest (554 or ?) received January data

plates despite having had much of their build actually performed in December.

Which in turn skewed the January figure (by VIN) to about double normal.

All Z Best,................................Kathy & Rick