quarter panel questions

[zed2]

Ok, let me add a bit of information;

I am the guy with the extra OEM (uninstalled) quarter panel that the shop is going to use for the project.

The shop restored my 240Z (read in another one of my posts if you are interested in the project). The price quoted for the part to saridout is completely accurate. I am not the greedy sort of person who has to make a killing on a rare part. (There are many people out there who have rare parts who want an "arm-and-a-leg" for what they have.) I have collected many parts for my project that I do not ever plan to use, this quarter panel is one of them.

The shop in question does exceptional work and I am indebted to the owner for the care and attention in my project. My indebtedness only refers to my gratitude for efforts as my financial obligation has long been settled.

I have seen saridout's car in person and agree with the shop's description of the work needed, presuming the car's owner wants quality workmanship. There are many shops that specialize in collision work that can do a fast, cheap repair. If a car owner is looking for quality restoration work, then the car is at the correct shop!

Just my two cents.

Keith

So how about everyone backing off a bit

Edited May 2, 2010 by zed2

[saridout]

ok, sorry guys that i haven't responded. i accidentally unsubscribed.

let me just say a few things that i think should be obvious, especially if you've been looking at my previous posts. firstly, this is my first restoration, and i have absolutely no idea what to expect when it comes to cost, extent of rust, etc, except what i can glean from here. secondly, i love my car desperately, and want to do the best i can for it. thirdly, i am of limited means. the reason i chose the most expensive shop is because i was told that the quote, aside from parts such as the rubber, was for "the worst case scenario," and expected that it was all-encompassing. i also had a really good review of the shop and had seen the work he'd done and was satisfied.

E, the general consensus that i got from the thread you linked to was that the car didn't have any rust that was earth-shattering, with the exception of the headlight area rust, which has already been repaired. if anyone had actually told me that my car was a disaster, as you were so kind to point out, i probably would have put more thought into finding a different shell. as evidenced by this thread and most threads on here, there's generally a mix of opinion, and for someone like me who has no basis to make a decision except what i get from here, it can get confusing.

believe me, there was no arm-twisting involved in the shop taking on my car. one reason i chose this shop is because he seemed very enthusiastic about the project, and brushed off my concerns about problem areas as not being any problem. this particular shop has a long history of working on z cars, so i assumed he knew what he was talking about.

i don't think it's at all out of line to question my body man, especially here in a forum of people who know better than i do. he's said and done some things that have planted a seed of doubt in my mind. for instance, he insisted that the windshield couldn't be reinstalled without the defrost vent cover put in first, which isn't true. they also broke my windshield and say that it's my responsibility to replace it. the proprietor himself said that there is no difference between the quarter panels from any year z, from 69-78, which is something that i would expect someone with extensive experience with z's to know. not to mention that a time frame was agreed on during which i would make payments, and it's been dramatically shortened from 8 months to possibly 4 months. i think it would be irresponsible of me to NOT pay attention to these things.

i like the shop, and i am confident that the car will be beautiful in the end, but i can't afford to just pay him more and more than the amount we agreed on. E, you seem to be suggesting that i'm fishing for the answer that i will like best, but that's not the case. i honestly don't know what i should do about the whole situation, and am getting mixed messages, and it is causing me CONSTANT stress.

Geezer: i'm very confident that the oem quarter panel in question is genuine. it comes from a trusted source.

EDIT: also, i want to add something. after i got the quote from him, which included from-scratch repairs of the rusty headlight areas and the front right fender, i bought body parts to replace the rusty holes and an OEM replacement fender. he said that he would discount the original quote because of these items, but it seems to have had no effect on what he's asking for the quarter panel repair.

Edited May 12, 2010 by saridout
additional comment

[EScanlon]

Saridout:

You've chosen to address and rebutt most of the items I mentioned in my earlier post and, from the tone of your writing, taken offense or had your feelings hurt. If that's the case, then realize that the response(s) (mine and others) are all based on what YOU have posted.

The items that you feel "should be obvious", are NOT that obvious. You arrived on the forum back in March 09 and for the first FIVE months, you addressed many items NOT related to the bodywork your car needs. Engine rebuilding, heater problems and repairs, electrical gremlins and other assorted problems mainly dealing with the engine and parts thereof. You did NOT label yourself as a complete novice when it came to working on cars.

The end of August 09 is when you finally asked about rust:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35655

You also qualified the rust "The passengers side is not quite as bad; the rust doesn't go past where the headlight sits."; giving rise to the impression that you were familiar with what you were working on. Nonetheless, you were advised to look further to determine the full extent of the rust.

I'd hazard a guess that the rust you see is just the start.

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showpost.php?p=301316&postcount=5

Your last post to that thread:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showpost.php?p=301459&postcount=10

Says you were comfortable just treating the rust with Ospho. That however was your FIRST indication there were problems to be addressed.

Three months later, you posted about a bodyshop quote you weren't happy with:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36599

Where you asked about "Bondo" and I provided an explanation, to which you replied:

wow, thanks E. everything i never knew about body filler

i'm pretty sure the body is going to need quite a bit of work. i'm going to, at the very least, visit his shop again. and i'm going to take my dad, who admittedly knows a lot more about body work than i do.

Emphasis mine.

That pretty much says you KNEW about the potential for problems and the need for more careful evaluation by more competent people. That was your SECOND indication.

At the beginning of this year, you then posted your "i need some reassurance" thread, where in your initial post you had been advised by a bodyshop that "(they) thought the car was in better condition than this," and they excused themselves from working out a trade with you for the bodywork.

That was your THIRD notice and warning.

Any consensus YOU derived from all these notices is just your own wishful thinking. There were problems, and you were told of the problems, and you chose to not see them as problematic. That's YOUR doing, not anything I or anyone else here did or failed to alert you to.

You mention that:

...if anyone had actually told me that my car was a disaster, as you were so kind to point out, i probably would have put more thought into finding a different shell.

Yeah right, we should have been more pro-active and forced you to stop and really evaluate the situation. There is only so much "power" this keyboard holds. Sorry, that falls on you to be the one to ascertain what to and not do.

It wasn't until January that you actually posted some pictures of the rest of your car's body that finally showed the extent of the problems. You then chose to only post 3 pictures here, 3 of which had been posted to your Flickr account when you started that album, and NONE of the ones that showed the rust everywhere else. To see those, you had to go to your Flickr account and peruse through them. You were told by more than one person that rust repair is neither cheap nor quick and that it can harbor surprises.

You chose to debate the point:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showpost.php?p=314320&postcount=5

and went looking for another shop. You found the one that did the work on Zed2's car. That was the end of March.

Your next thread is this one, where from the first post you've questioned, re-questioned and doubted everything the bodyman has told you, and where you've taken bits and pieces of information posted here to form an "informed" opinion. Yet, it's those same bits and pieces of information that are tripping you up.

You cite that:

i don't think it's at all out of line to question my body man, especially here in a forum of people who know better than i do.

Which is your response to my statement of:

And, instead of accepting the advice of anyone who hasn't laid hands or eyes on your car directly, myself included, when it comes to the extent of the rusted metal and the amount of metal that should be replaced, trust your bodyman.

emphasis mine

Note that I'm advising you trust the person doing the work, and NOBODY ELSE. But you feel it's ok since you have the "forum of people who know better than i do" backing you up. If you don't trust him, pull your car and go elsewhere.

You state:

E, you seem to be suggesting that i'm fishing for the answer that i will like best...

Let me help you with that, you've done NOTHING BUT select those answers that supported what you wanted to feel about your car. You've represented your car as nothing less than: "it looks worse than it is" while selecting those responses that uphold that view.

If this seems harsh... well so be it. I'm not going to apologize for it.

That's why I put on my flame suit.

2¢

E

[hls30.com]

Questioning a bodyman is a good thing before choosing one, trusting but verifying is also a good thing, realize that evaluating a car based on a computer monitor is a toughie. a Member here bought a "fully restored, better than new" 240Z that is only just now getting ready for paint-more than a year and a half later. So many deal killers hidden under filler and new paint you wouldn't believe it. Anything can be hidden if you don't know where to look. I know most questions on car condition are answered here with what is obvious with experience, and the best advice: Get an experienced local club member to go look at the car. There is no substitute for a good once over by someone with the apropriate tools and experienced enough to know how to use them.

[saridout]

E- thank you for all the time you've put into helping me. i appreciate it very much.

hls30- that's a good idea, and i may end up doing that. although zed2 says that he looked at it and agrees with the shop's assessment, so it may be overkill.

really, my concern now is not that the car has more rust than i, or any of the several people i'd shown it to, had originally thought, but that a quote i had received for a worse-case scenario body restoration is growing beyond what was agreed on. i'm being asked for money up front when i was told that i would pay half halfway through the job and the rest at the end of the job. but that's something i need to take up with my body man. the questions i asked yall about the quarter panel issue have basically been answered.

thanks everyone for your advice. i just need to keep telling myself, it's just a car... it's just a car...

[zed2]

Saw the car the other day, it is coming along great! You should post photos to give others an opportunity to see the progress.

Keith

[saridout]

haha, i was going to, but i accidentally washed my iphone the day before i went and saw it

i'm going to go take some pictures in the next few days, though. thanks for letting me know!

[DaveBonds]

Hmm... wow, that is certainly a project. Not a bad car to start with, IMO. His quote to do the work that you are talking about is CHEAP.

The truth about your quarter panel is that even with the best rust repairs made to the original panel, a full replacement panel is ALWAYS the best repair. It may or may not be the most economical way to repair rust and/ or body damage, but without a doubt, will always produce the best finish results.

How economical it is to replace a panel is subjective per scenario.

I have made panels for cars from flatstock sheet steel and aluminum, but I did it because I had no other choice. It is expensive to contract this kind of labor and it takes a lot of patience on both the technician and customers part.

Again, it can be done, but weather or not it is economical is subjective.

I know exactly what your bodyman is doing. He is weighing the two types of repair on your car against eachother for the best possible final product, and when you can eliminate welding, bodywork and filler in any situation, that option will always be chosen, unless somehow, for whatever uncommon reason it becomes impractical.

I restore cars for a living. Last week, I stripped the quarter panels on a 1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass, to find fiberglass repairs and enough body filler that it necessitated a torch and a chisel to remove it all from the metal before sanding the rest off. We charged the customer for my time (one days worth) to strip both quarter panels, only to find that they both had rear collision that wasn't repaired properly underneath the body filler, along with the rust.

I came to the conclusion that if it were one or the other (either body or rust repair) it may be economical to repair the existing quarter panels, but it wasn't worth the time and his money spent to have to repair both rust and body damage. We spoke with the owner and have made a schedule to replace both panels.

Just about every bodyman knows better than to remove a body panel without having the potential replacement panel on hand to compare and measure against the original. Even if this replacement panel has the incorrect C pillar and rear bumper shapes, adjustments can be made to a replacement panel much easier than repairing rust, because the technician has access to both sides of the body panel without obstruction, to use a minimal amount of body filler in the adjusted areas once the panel is in place on the car.

A replacement panel also allows the technician access to rust and damaged areas underneath that would otherwise be inaccessable. You would be amazed at the amount of dirt that can become trapped in a quarter panel.

In some cases, I have removed quarter panels from cars, even if I plan on reusing them, just to repair underlying rust and do what I can to treat and prevent further rust, before reinstalling an original panel.

I am removing a quarter panel on my mothers car that is in need of collision repair and rust repair that I will likely never find a replacement for. I can probably repair the damage on the vehicle, but the end result will be much better if I remove the panel to repair the damage and then reinstall it.

There are a lot of things to take into consideration when you are having bodywork done on a car. It sounds to me like your bodyman knows what he is doing. The likely scenario is that he is going to use the '70-'71 or '71-'73 quarter panel with minor adjustments to work properly on your car.

This is exactly what I would do if I was presented with an economical replacement panel like he has, if I were working on your car.

[saridout]

wow, thanks for all the info. unfortunately (since you went to the trouble to type all that out), my body man already decided to just repair the existing quarter panel in question. we had a donor car that we were waiting on, but the owner kept stalling so my body man just went ahead and repaired what was there. it may not be perfect, but if there's any problem with it in the future, he guarantees his work.

i'll post pictures soon!