'Big Sam' - Bonhams auction at 2010 Silverstone Classic.

[HS30-H]

Just a quick heads-up on a forthcoming event here in the UK:

'Big Sam' - the Datsun 240Z race car of some repute - has been entered into the Bonhams auction at the Silverstone Classic meeting ( http://www.silverstoneclassic.com/ ), to be held on Saturday 24th July 2010.

Attached below are some scans of the auction catalogue. I'll let the catalogue description of the car speak for itself.

It's a very interesting car, with a fairly complicated history. It will be interesting to see what price it sells for....

Cheers,

Alan T.

[Mr Camouflage]

Until recently I always wondered why the car was painted a such a horrible paint scheme, until I read in a magazine article that a photographer was coming to to take some photos of the car and the owner wanted to get it painted in a hurry, and so took it to a nearby painters, but the only colour they had enough of was the metallic brown.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Mr Camouflage

[HS30-H]

Poses the question; is a re-bodied car (albeit a left hand drive ex-works shell , converted to RHD) still considered the original "Big Sam".

It's an interesting question, and brings us to the concept of what is now known as 'Continuous History'....

The story of 'Big Sam' includes three bodyshells if we include the identity of the ex-Rob Grant race car ( what I have been calling 'Big Sam Version 1' for a while now ) and the fact that this itself was a re-shell. We can draw a continuous line from the very first Rob Grant race car - which was based on a 1970 RHD ex-Works rally car - through the second Rob Grant race car ( a re-shell following a major crash ) which also used a 1970 RHD ex-Works rally 'shell. This became the first 'Big Sam' ( not much more than a re-paint and some signwriting at first ), which was comprehensively crashed mid-season - requiring yet another bodyshell. The replacement bodyshell used was from a 1972 LHD ex-Works rally car, which itself needed not a little straightening and conversion from LHD to RHD. I call the result - the car that is being sold by Bonhams - 'Big Sam Version 2'. Anybody who fells a little confused at this point has my sympathy....

So, no less than three bodyshells ( all of them ex-Works rally car bodyshells, but the first two being arguably a little more special than the third ) converge into the 'Big Sam' story. Some of the components from the first and second are incorporated in the third. Anyone who buys 'Big Sam' as it is now is also buying that 'Continuous History', but would probably be well advised to concentrate on what the car is now rather than all the other stuff.

The world of old racing cars is quite familiar with such questions of new chassis, new body, old identity and the cans of worms therein. It becomes a question of philosophy in the end.

The car as it stands now is eligible for competition in more than one race series, and it would be great to see it rubbing shoulders with it's contemporaries again. It's a great package.

Alan T.

[John Coffey]

Reminds me of the "Washington's Axe" story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[sblake01]

Yeah, I know how that is. I still have my great grandfather's hammer but I've replaced the handle twice and the head once.

[Ron Carter]

Interesting delima.

From a historical standpoint this is the car, but really it has been rebodied now for the 3rd time.

Hmm, I guess we will see how it does at auction.

I am not sure that buyers are that effected by a rebodied car unless one of the previous bodies has been repaired and is claiming that it is the original.

Bob Klemme sold his 67.5 2000 roadster Serial #4 race car for a very high price compared to most 67.5 Datsun 2000 roadsters. This car has documented racing history and carries the original frame but the car had been rebodied...Where does that stand in the scheme of things?

Ron

[Mr Camouflage]

It's an interesting question, and brings us to the concept of what is now known as 'Continuous History'....

Alan T.

Sorry Alan. I edited that out of my original post, before you submitted the reply for the following reasons:

I don't know the history of Big Sam all too well, and at a cursory glance of the article, it appeared to me that this Big Sam, was a re-boded version of the original.

After posting, I read the article a little more, and then was under the impression that the original Big Sam was built from this chassis.

Not knowing which one was the case I decided to edit my post and remove the comment, in case it was incorrect.

Thanks for the Big Sam background info that the article seems to be (purposely?) ambiguous about.

I might have to find the article I have and re-read of it.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Mr Camouflage

[HS30-H]

Sorry Alan. I edited that out of my original post, before you submitted the reply for the following reasons:

Craig,

I think your original post made a very good point, and deserved a reply. It's a subject that a few people over here are talking about now that the car has come up for sale.

I think there's little doubt that the major part of 'Big Sam's' history is with the 'shell that it's in now. This is the 'shell that won the Modsports championship and everything that came after that. It also happens to have been an ex-Works rally car ( with it's own interesting history, including a connection to the 1973 Monte Carlo Rallye, the 1973 Scottish Rally, the 1973 Burmah Rally and some other notable events here in the UK ) which is an interesting side-story. Getting too fixated on the re-shell ( re-shells! ) is to miss point - this iteration of the car is arguably its most successful, and this iteration is 'Big Sam'.

A few years ago, Bonhams sold a couple of cars that were described as genuine ex-Works rally 240Zs. In fact they had both been re-shelled, and the replacement 'shells were standard road cars - one a Fairlady Z-L, and one a UK market 240Z. As the original rally cars were both 1970-built lightweights ( proper PZR style bodies, with all the FRP and Plexiglass ) this was a case of like not being replaced with like, and it amounted to a conglomeration of some ex-Works parts being attached to a pair of standard road cars. The baby was thrown out with the bathwater, so to speak. That's clearly not the case with 'Big Sam'....

Bonhams have given 'Big Sam' an estimate of £40,00 to £60,000 GBP, which I think - if we were to compare it to other marques and models with a similar level of history - is decidedly conservative.

Alan T.

[MikeW]

Bonhams have given 'Big Sam' an estimate of £40,00 to £60,000 GBP, which I think - if we were to compare it to other marques and models with a similar level of history - is decidedly conservative.

When you first posted this I started to reply asking for your opinion of the price estimate but decided not to put you on the spot and hit cancel instead. I'm glad to hear that you think it's conservative.

Reminds me of the "Washington's Axe" story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Strangely enough the only time I've heard that expression is in reference to Body Coddington's legal troubles - which is precisely what's being discussed here regarding a car with numerous parts changed out as opposed to the traditional joke about the Axe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd_Coddington

[HS30-H]

Strangely enough the only time I've heard that expression is in reference to Body Coddington's legal troubles - which is precisely what's being discussed here regarding a car with numerous parts changed out as opposed to the traditional joke about the Axe.

One thing I think worth making clear is the timeline involved in this particular car's case:

The 're-shell' which resulted in the car as it stands now took place in the middle of 1974! We are not talking about something that happened long after the career of a race car finished, and the greater part of the 'Big Sam' story is in the car's current bodyshell.

Interestingly ( and perhaps somewhat unusually! ) no attempt to change or obscure the chassis number and 'identity' of the 'shell was made either in period or subsequently. And mercifully, there's been no miraculous 'resurrection' of the previous 'shells as yet, although there must have been some people in the past who were tempted.....

Alan T.

[John Coffey]

BTW... my little comment about "Washington's Axe" wasn't meant to disparage the Big Sam car.

[Big sam]

Im going to be in england next week, maybe I,l head over there and take a look.the silverstone classic looks to be quite a good race meeting.And to see my cars name sake would be great:classic: