Pedegree of S30 styling?

[FastWoman]

Hi all,

I was chatting with a Triumph Spitfire owner yesterday. He commented that my 280 was a knock-off of a Ferrari. I grimaced and insisted, "No, it's its own automobile." I had previously chatted with a family member about my car, and he said he remembered it being criticized after its release on the grounds that it was a rip-off of a Jaguar E-type. I admitted that there were some similarities but insisted, as yesterday, that the Z was its own style.

Reflecting on the lines of the car, it occurs to me that there are several cars from that general era that shared the 2-seater design with long hood, slung-back cabin, fastback, and sleek curves:

240/260/280Z (Japanese)

Toyota 2000GT (Japanese)

Jaguar E-type (British)

Triumph GT-6 (British)

Opel GT (German/American)

various Ferraris (don't know them very well) (Italian)

Corvette Stingray (American)

But thinking about the issue further, the whole long-hood and slung-back cabin 2-seater thing really goes back much further -- to the late 20's and early 30's. For instance:

Auburn speedsters (American)

Stutz Bearcats (American)

Morgans (British - with the same lines preserved today)

Some Duesenbergs (American)

Cord Speedsters (American)

In fact if you include 4-seaters in this general design category, this era was characterized by long hoods, beautiful sweeping lines, and slung-back cabins. The customized Lincolns, Packards, Pierces and Caddies were especially fetching.

So to me it is too simplistic to say this style or that is a rip-off of some other style. The S30's styling elements evolved over a very long time, picking up traditions from various parts of the world, perhaps primarily American, but also European.

How does all this fit in with what we know of the S30's history? The car was really designed primarily for an American market, so wouldn't it make sense to hit on American styling traditions? We all know that Albrecht Goertz (German, immigrated to the US in 1936) greatly influenced the design of the S30, hired by Nissan as a sports car consultant. He also played a role in the design of the sexy Toyota 2000GT, which was carried from Nissan to Toyota via a mutual collaborator Yamaha. Perhaps we'll never know how big a role he played in either. However, the similarities between the lines of the 2000GT and the S30 are undeniable.

Goertz would have certainly sung the praises of American and European styling, drawing upon styling elements of Ferraris, Jaguars E-types, and Corvette Sting Rays. Obviously other manufacturers were moving in the same directions with their own releases. The general design of the S30 seemed to have been part of a strong evolutionary wave, perhaps seeded by the 50's Ferraris, the 1961 E-type, and the 1963 Sting Ray.

I'm also struck by the coincidence of Goertz' immigration in 1936, when he would have surely been awe-struck by the sexy styling of the forementioned American automobiles, particularly as glorified by Hollywood. I'm certain the long lines of the engine compartment and slung-back cab would have been very important to the man. He certainly introduced some of these elements into BMW sportscar styling that are preserved today in the Z3, Z4, and Z8.

So if anything, I would say that all of these more modern styles similar to the S30 are really modernizations of mostly American styles from the late 1920's and early 1930's in the early years of the Art Deco movement.

But where did those styles come from? Perhaps it's just me, but I do see quite a lot of similarity between the automobiles of that day and the horse-drawn chariots of various ancient civilizations -- lots of (literally) horsepower in front, importantly drawing a small cab with the driver behind. Not surprisingly, neoclassicism was a major, major element of the Art Deco movement. Just look at any of the artwork from the day.

These are all just semi-educated opinions on my part. I'd love to know what others thing about the origins of the S30 styling.

Anyway, the next time I'm challenged that the S30 is somehow a rip-off of another car from the same era, I think I'll respond that they're both rip-offs, so to speak, of the ancient chariots.

[5thhorsemann]

Designers are constsntly ripping eachother off. When something works or looks great, it gets incorperated into the next generation of products. That is the definition of evolution.

[Carl Beck]

Hi all,

We all know that Albrecht Goertz (German, immigrated to the US in 1936) greatly influenced the design of the S30, hired by Nissan as a sports car consultant. He also played a role in the design of the sexy Toyota 2000GT, which was carried from Nissan to Toyota via a mutual collaborator Yamaha. Perhaps we'll never know how big a role he played in either. However, the similarities between the lines of the 2000GT and the S30 are undeniable.

Hello FastWoman:

Everything above is either factually incorrect, or complete Myth.

If you would like to know who designed the the Z Car, see: http://zhome.com/History/StylingMatsuo/MatsuoZStory1.htm

IF you would like a concise summary of the chain of events that resulted in the Z Car - Order a copy of the book below and follow along..{it's only a few bucks} Just put the I.S.B.N. in the Search box on the Web Site.

PROJECT X Challengers 240Z The Fated Z Plan

By: Akira Yokoyama

Digital Manga Publishing

ISBN 1-56970-957-2

www.dmpbooks.com

"Project X" - is not about cars, but rather a study of world class business successes in several different industries. The goal of "Project X" was to determine or identify what factors or elements several very successful business endeavors all had in common. These studies were well researched and then presented on Japanese T.V. as more or less entertaining, educational documentaries. The Manga above was then a follow-on to the T.V. series. In my opinion, of all the books written about the Z Car - this one will give you the most accurate information to date about the design and development of the Z Car.

There are lots of other subjects in your initial Post and I think it would be fun to explore some of them.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Mike B]

Hello FastWoman:

Everything above is either factually incorrect, or complete Myth.

I think this sentence also fits that description:

The car was really designed primarily for an American market, so wouldn't it make sense to hit on American styling traditions?

I'd love to know what others thing about the origins of the S30 styling.

There has been quite a bit of debate regarding that on this site. You can search and find numerous threads, but you might want to start with this one: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36319

-Mike

Edited November 22, 2010 by Mike B

[cygnusx1]

Who, what, where, when is always going to be a point of discussion, but opinion on which prior cars influenced the shape and performance of the S30 is a topic that nobody can argue against. Of course this assumes the influencing car came before the S30 ;-) The only argument that would be valid, would be that a single designer was raised in a dark room and never saw any other car until he/she designed the S30. I doubt that's the case.

Edited November 22, 2010 by cygnusx1

[olzed]

Fastwoman. Can of worms stuff?? That Goertz story refuses to lie down.

Good on you for defending our S30s with your Spitfire friend.

Every design ever produced had the influence of preceding designs from around the world,

otherwise we would still be living in caves, and walking.

Edited November 22, 2010 by olzed

[Marco69]

It has been said that all car designs were inspired by something else; be it a body, a shape or just another car. I believe this to be true and so this does apply to the S30 design as well.

Based on some facts, it seems that Goertz and Yamaha had a lot to do with this car's inception, but then again, Yamaha has had a huge influence in Japanese performance cars (not including their own motorcycle lines). What strikes me as more influential or important as a premise is the idea that both of the most iconic cars from Japan (Z and 2000GT) had the same origin or at least initiated from the same original sketch. It seems that the original design (by Goertz) was initially abandoned by Nissan; which Yamaha then took to Toyota and then became the 2000GT. Nissan of course retook the project a couple of year later and the Z was born.

And to think that just lines are responsible for car design is not looking at the whole picture. American cars of the 50s and 60s were not flowing and sporty in nature. At that time, American fastbacks like the Corvette, Mustang, Barracuda, etc. did not have the flowing lines that would inspire the Z or 2000GT – unless the designer has a really wild imagination. Cars from the 20s and 30s were on a different vintage and hardly influential to cars of the 60s or 70s. If you analyze car design through the decades (time), you’ll see breakthroughs every so many years where it appears a new mold is created and many cars will follow that styling until a new mold is created. So, the only car inspired by 20s or 30s design is the Morgan.

I have no problem with the idea that the Z or 2000GT were inspired by a Ferrari 250 GTO or Jaguar E-Type – quite the contrary, I feel honored by the prospect.

As a matter of personal preference, I prefer the lines of the 2000GT, but I must admit that the Z is right there as well in terms of lines and appeal.

In reality, how may cars can you see today that don’t resemble another design or some other car. I don’t think there is much under the sun in terms of conventional car design anymore. There is only so much you can do with 4 wheels, doors, and windows. What sets them apart are the details and character lines, but even that is getting blurry – have you the cars today? No wonder my newest car is from 1995.

Cheers,

Marco

[26th-Z]

The wrongest most incorrectest thing to say is that Albrecht Goertz had anything to do with the design of the S30. The next wrongest thing to say is that the S30 was designed for the American market. I won't argue that the prospect of the American market influenced some design aspects of the car and that Nissan did anticipate exporting the car, but it was not designed for the Americas with any sort of exclusivity. The S30 is very typical of Japanese design philosophy and expression of the period. In the case of the S30, the design is an expression of a leaping Cheetah and the closest parallel automotive design of the period is the Alfa Romeo Montreal. I would imagine that Carl and Mike would agree that if you sat down and talked to the guy who was there, you would come to similar conclusions.

Edited November 22, 2010 by 26th-Z

[HS30-H]

Marco69,

No offence, but....

Based on some facts, it seems that Goertz and Yamaha had a lot to do with this car's inception.....

No they didn't. To be blunt, there are no such "facts".

What strikes me as more influential or important as a premise is the idea that both of the most iconic cars from Japan (Z and 2000GT) had the same origin or at least initiated from the same original sketch.

What magical 'sketch' is this, then?

The real hands-on protagonists in the stories of both the S30-series Z and Toyota's MF10 have all made it clear that Goertz was not behind their designs. The only person who claimed such influence was Goertz himself, and his claims were not based on any substance. They are - quite simply - not true.

It seems that the original design (by Goertz) was initially abandoned by Nissan; which Yamaha then took to Toyota and then became the 2000GT. Nissan of course retook the project a couple of year later and the Z was born.

This is not what happened. You are confusing the story of the 'Nissan 2000GT' / 'Nissan A550X' Yamaha prototype with the stories of the Nissan S30 and Toyota MF10. There is no direct lineage between the three designs.

Not a single line or curve on, or in, the S30 and MF10 can be attributed to Goertz. It's that simple.

Please don't be offended, but I believe sometimes it's worth being forceful about such things. People seem to want to believe the Goertz stories, but they are based on little more than his own hubris. It really is time for us to give the credit to the people who deserve it.

We are closer to the truth right now than we have ever been in the past.

Alan T.

[Marco69]

Marco69,

No offence, but....

No they didn't. To be blunt, there are no such "facts".

What magical 'sketch' is this, then?

The real hands-on protagonists in the stories of both the S30-series Z and Toyota's MF10 have all made it clear that Goertz was not behind their designs. The only person who claimed such influence was Goertz himself, and his claims were not based on any substance. They are - quite simply - not true.

This is not what happened. You are confusing the story of the 'Nissan 2000GT' / 'Nissan A550X' Yamaha prototype with the stories of the Nissan S30 and Toyota MF10. There is no direct lineage between the three designs.

Not a single line or curve on, or in, the S30 and MF10 can be attributed to Goertz. It's that simple.

Please don't be offended, but I believe sometimes it's worth being forceful about such things. People seem to want to believe the Goertz stories, but they are based on little more than his own hubris. It really is time for us to give the credit to the people who deserve it.

We are closer to the truth right now than we have ever been in the past.

Alan T.

None taken - thank you for the clarification/correction, but honestly, I'm not keen in either being right or convincing anyone - I am just expressing my opinion in terms of the actual design and what I know about the S30. I find it interesting that people take this "who created what and when" so seriously. What counts for me is that the car was actually designed, not who did it. I'd be more than happy if papa smurf designed the S30; and by the looks of things, that may just be the answer everyone is after.

Don't mean to be an jerk about it, so no offense intended! I do promise not to use the name Goertz in relation with the S30 or 2000GT.

Cheers,

Marco

[grantf]

not worth discussing in length

[HS30-H]

....but honestly, I'm not keen in either being right or convincing anyone - I am just expressing my opinion in terms of the actual design and what I know about the S30. I find it interesting that people take this "who created what and when" so seriously. What counts for me is that the car was actually designed, not who did it. I'd be more than happy if papa smurf designed the S30; and by the looks of things, that may just be the answer everyone is after.

You could read it as some kind of Newtonian equal and opposite reaction to reading / hearing mistakes, untruths and plain lies. If people keep saying that Goertz designed / styled the S30 ( and the Toyota 2000GT ) and all that other stuff, then I'm afraid people like me are going to pipe up to try and get it straightened out. Tilting at windmills perhaps, but worth taking a shot at, in my opinion.

One phenomenon I sometimes come across - and which surprises me every time I see it - is where people seem to want to connect Goertz to the cars, but then profess not to care who was actually responsible when the Goertz story is so easily dismissed. It's almost like the Japanese people responsible don't deserve to have their names mentioned.

Papa Smurf? Hmmmm. That might just be a very revealing comment.

not worth discussing in length

I beg to differ, of course. But can you tell me why you would say that, and indeed why you would go to the trouble of posting it if you really don't care?

Cheers,

Alan T.