Pedegree of S30 styling?

[FastWoman]

Well, I seem to have stirred a hornet's nest. Sorry about that! I knew there was controversy about Goertz but indicated that he influenced the design, not that he designed the car. In other words, it was my understanding that he was consulted, not that he put pen to paper. Perhaps that's myth too, but a letter from Nissan to Goertz seemed to indicate he did SOMETHING in their employ. Perhaps it was just sculpting 101. Dunno. I don't really care, although I can certainly understand why some people do.

All I was really interested in teasing out was the influences -- the evolutionary lineage, as it were. I see the styling of the S30 as very European and American. Typical Japanese styling of the day would have been more along the lines of the B210.

I'm also interested for some weird reason in the long hood and slung back cabin look, which flies in the face of most of most of modern design (with exceptions in cars like the BMW roadsters and the Corvette). I'm especially thinking about Chrysler's emphasis over the past several years about their "cab forward" design. Seems strange to me. Also hoods are shorter, transverse-mount engines are crammed practically under the dash, and so forth. Many kids nowadays want short, rounded, "cute" styles, rather than the elongated-hood styles that to them sometimes look "dorky." (Just quoting from my stepson -- although he's warmed considerably to my lovely Z.)

Anyway, no offense was intended. My apologies to everyone. Happy to let this thread die. Backing away now... :paranoid:

Peace,

Sarah

[5thhorsemann]

Fast woman has created a monster here. The canoe was designed after a smart fellow saw a leaf floating in a stream (or not). We have gone into a mind readers realm.

[geezer]

My apologies to everyone. Happy to let this thread die. Backing away now... :paranoid:

Hi Sarah, I don't think you owe an apology to anyone and there isn't any reason to become paranoid either. We are blessed with a number of esteemed members here that are quite passionate about this subject and rightfully so. They have done the research, sorted the facts from the fiction, spoke to several of the principals involved in the intriquing story of the S30 and cannot stand by and let false statements perpetuate. I am grateful for their efforts and also look forward to the day when recognition is finally bestowed on the entire design team that is deserving. Please do continue your discussion of the S30 design. I find it very interesting and believe we can discuss the finer points of the design without crediting any one person as being responsible for its existance.

[5thhorsemann]

Hay Geezer, do you really care what the rest of the world thinks? Next time you scooch your old butt into your S, adjust the mirror so you can see yourself, that big arse smile on your face is all the recognition the designers ever needed. Had mine out last night, and the smile is still on my face.

[Gary in NJ]

All I was really interested in teasing out was the influences -- the evolutionary lineage, as it were.

Sarah,

I know exactly where you are going here. Without talking to the design team first hand we can never know the true influence(s) on the S30 design. However, with that said the S30 stands proud when compared to cars like the Ferrari 250GTO, Jaguar E-Type, Maserati Mistral, Lotus Elan, Lamborghini Islero, Chevy Corvette and yes - even the Toyota 2000GT. All of the aforementioned cars share a similar design style - even if not one of these cars influenced any other car on the planet. Cars of that era share the same design language, i.e. a proper (for a sports GT) "long snout" look. That in and of itself should not kick-up a hornets nest. I hope we could all agree on that.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Gary in NJ

[Marco69]

For some of the comments I read here, it seems that the design team is still waiting to be paid for the work on the S30 - and of course they want the well-deserved recognition, even if posthumous. Yes, I understand that this topic is very important to some, but in the end, those that carry the flag of truth have also gotten their facts from someone else. For me, the only person that I believe has some solid (and by solid I mean factual) information is kats because of his dealings with Mr. Tamura – kat’s threads also make for very interesting reading. But even then, I don't care to solve the mystery. I just keep it simple… I drive a Japanese sports GT built by Nissan under the Datsun brand.

Oh, and I have nothing against Japanese designers, or the S30 chassis being a Japanese design - I am perfectly fine; even when I thought the Z car was designed by Mr. K (Yutaka Katayama).

But I digress – I will leave the “people talk” for those interested in reality internet… I’ll just keep to the car topics, which is the reason I am here.

FastWoman – my apologies for derailing the thread – was not my intention.

[olzed]

Just a little more on the goertz thing before it lies down.

A couple of years ago a classic car mag down here had a competition asking who designed the 240z. And their answer was -----goertz. My answer which was of course 'wrong' was Nissan designers.!!!!!!

[Mike B]

Here is another thread that I think provides some more insight into the Nissan design philosophy in the late 1960's when the S30 was being developed http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35384

-Mike

[Carl Beck]

Hi all,

Reflecting on the lines of the car, it occurs to me that there are several cars from that general era that shared the 2-seater design with long hood, slung-back cabin, fastback, and sleek curves:

AND

But where did those styles come from? Perhaps it's just me, but I do see quite a lot of similarity between the automobiles of that day and the horse-drawn chariots of various ancient civilizations --

Hi FastWoman:

As I said earlier - there are a lot of individual discussions that could flow out of your original Post.

For the most part your initial Post is I believe focused on the "Styling" of the S30 and other "like" cars of the period or past. The shape or form of the car, that presents itself to you visually.

I find it interesting that you recognized the long hood, slung back cabin and sleek curves, but failed to mention the classic female form, followed by many of the sports cars of the 50's, 60's and early 70's. {indeed several long before}.

Aesthetics... the nature of beauty.

In very general terms, the human brain sees forms that are familiar and/or harmonious as safe, good or pleasing. Forms that are unfamiliar and/or conflicted as dangerous, bad or ugly.

Visual lines or forms walk a very fine edge though our visual space - and the slightest break in flow, balance or harmony will cause a less than pleasing mental reaction.

Look at the picture below - Pablo Picasso's "Femme". Here Picasso has defined a female form using only four apparently simple/easily drawn lines. That is more than enough visual clue for your brain to fill in the rest {consciously or subconsciously}. Simple/easy lines?.... Look at Pablo's work, now take a piece of paper and pencil and draw it freehand yourself. See how easily you can duplicate Pablo's work.... or NOT.

The point is - the slightest change in line, balance, harmony among/between the lines - can have a huge impact on how the human brain perceives it... There is a very wide mental continuum between "Beautiful"........ and...."Ugly". While beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, hundreds of controlled experiments have shown that human definition of beauty - falls along that continuum - within the normal range of statistical distribution.

The glass Coke Bottle, and most of the cars you mention are simply variations of the female form, in whole or in part - that most humans find pleasing. The hard part is getting those lines drawn out perfectly...

By the way - do you really think that the "Power Bulge", shaped as it is, in the hood of any of the earlier cars came into use because they needed room for the engine? {see second picture for clues}

FWIW,

Carl B.

[SteveJ]

AND

By the way - do you really think that the "Power Bulge", shaped as it is, in the hood of any of the earlier cars came into use because they needed room for the engine? {see second picture for clues}

FWIW,

Carl B.

So are you insinuating that the "power bulge" is just another example of sex sells? If so, don't tell my wife. She'll get jealous when I'm in my garage with my 240Z & 260Z.

[DougN]

See what happens when you talk to lowly Spitfire owners FastWoman! In the future, you should limit yourself to fraternizing with only MG, Jag, Healey, Aston and Truimph drivers limited to TR3, TR4, TR250, TR6)

(note: while I actually like the Spitfire, when I lived in England, and drove an MG, the Spitfire was looked down upon by all the other British sports car drivers (including other Triumph drivers), hence the dig - also note the Brit car in my sig block)

[kats]

Hi ,

When I was in Bakers field CA at 1994, I met a 1972 240Z and I owned it and really enjoyed.That was a first time for me Z experience.At the same time I bought a book "Essential DATSUN Z " it says about Mr.Goertz.

Fairlady Z was a star for me when I was a little boy(and for all Japanese boys too) but we did not know who designed the car.

I read the book, then I trusted the book. So it is natural.

Now we have learned many things, it is very good and interesting.

Mr.Tamura gave me a special picture on the plastic panel,recently he has been inspired by so many S30 owners around the world, he took a brush and painted by himself. Mr.Tamura is a real artist.Still has incredible skills.

Please note this car is what he intented to give for S30 design, no emblems ,different wheels, mirror on the door,different rear over rider, and he can tell much much more details which we can not see from this side angle picture.

kats

Edited December 3, 2010 by kats