JDM Headlight cover difference.

[geezer]

Ron,

You're confusing me....

That's because I'm confused and I am spreading it around amongst the rest of you. Sorry about that, allow me to elaborate and explain what I find confusing and why I described what I see as being a mixed bag.

I said... "Looking at Kats drawing, he depicts the example on the left as being representative of the 3 holed version found on the 432 at the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show. I agree with the notation made on the drawing. It clearly is a prototype version that never went into production." ...meaning ... if what is shown in the drawing is really on the car, it had to be a prototype. I wasn't sure what I was seeing in the photos.

After seeing the latest pictures of the car in post #84, I can see that you are correct in your assessment of the retaining screws you had circled in red. The photos in post #84 trump all the previous examples. Up until now, I just couldn't say for sure...But taking a good look at the photos and trying to guesstimate the distance downwards from the leading edge or corner, those screws appear to be positioned a little lower than an E8726 suffixed version are. Kats shows those holes quite a bit lower.

I think you are correct. Looking at Kats drawing, it doesn't appear he was sure of the hole pattern on this car. My best guess is that Kats prototype label could be correct after all though, even if there are 4 holes and not 3 ...or... it is an E8726 prefixed version that has its image slightly skewed in the photo( without actually having an assigned number at the time). This kind of reminds me of the "early", "later" hubcap discussion, where it turned out there was photographic proof of both versions existing early on but the "later" version did not debute on the production line from the start.

In post #82 the two pics are of E8726 versions. So, those are all stainless?

In post #83 with the photo of the first S30 Series race car, the E4126 version is shown. As well, the scan dated March '70 showing the cover only on the PS30 Fairlady Z432 is the E4126 version. Those are easy for me to identify because I have a set in front of me that I can position the same as in the photos, as a visual aid.

Thank you everyone, for all the photos and allowing us to get a better idea of what was what and what is.

Edited December 3, 2010 by geezer

[geezer]

And I still have trouble believing that the E8726 suffixed covers could have existed - using that E8726 suffix - as long as one full year before the E8725 suffixed ZG type covers first appeared. Anyone care to speculate?

There were probably storerooms filled to the rafters with parts of every kind that were designed and built in very limited runs, even if never brought on line for production use. I think there is a real possibility of more than one non-finalized version of these headlight covers, sitting on a shelf somewhere, at the time, waiting on a decision from someone, to actually assign a part number and schedule for production. The paper trail or any other evidence supporting that theory is likely long gone though.

Edited December 2, 2010 by geezer

[mgood]

Hi all, I don't know much about these but I gathered all the info. and pictures and combined them on one sheet with a info. from which post and who. I did circle the holes where I could see them in black or red. I hope this helps, If I am wrong in places let me know I will fix the picture. This is how I interpreted the info.

Also great info and discussion.

Edited December 3, 2010 by mgood
changed the picture, added title.

[geezer]

Hi Michael, thanks for the photo recap. It is helpful having so many examples gathered in one post along with the information you have included. The only thing that I would change is the title line you have included on the top of the photo of the head on view of the 432 at the '69 Tokyo Show, that Alan attached in post #77. It hasn't been determined if the covers are "Later Part No. 63900-E8726 and 63901-E8726". I am leaning towards them not being that type. For one thing the part number didn't exist at the time. Also, the red circled holes just don't look to be positioned right (too low). The red question marks do represent a few of my other points of uncertainty on that photo as well.

For me, the only uncertainties I have about this entire thread, are the identification of the headlight covers on that 432 on display at the '69 Tokyo show and what to call the two common versions we have referred to as "early", "later".

I think Alan has successfully pointed out that at the time of the '69 Tokyo Show, it is possible that there was another version. At any rate the questions remain. Were they prototypes void of an assigned part number? Were they a stepping stone to the eventually listed E8726 suffixed headlight covers?

Thoughts?

Edit: Michael, perhaps a title for your post will aid in future searches as well.

Edited December 3, 2010 by geezer
added a suggestion

[geezer]

As all of the '69 Tokyo Show 432 pictures depict the same car , the headlamp covers seen on it cannot be both "prototypes" and E4126 ( or E8726 )....

What I meant but failed to convey properly is that from the view provided in this photo, without any other knowledge of the pictures origin or view provided in other photos, I would be tempted to label it as an E4126 suffixed cover. In this photo, I really couldn't make out a fastening screw where the arrow is indicating one. Not with any certainty. Of course we know better. Sorry for the confusion. Just another example of my fingers moving faster than my thought process.

Edit: Carl noted that the hole seemed to be lower in this photo when he posted it. Dang Carl, how the heck can you see that? Are you getting help from someone?

Edited December 3, 2010 by geezer

[kats]

Hi everyone,

I spread seeds and they have grown up...

I was wondering which is earlier than the other and about 1969 Tokyo motor show, these discussions make me think E4126 is for the one at the right on my poor sketch,and this is earlier than the other.At that time I was not for sure so I wrote "mystery" for the right one.

Thank you geezer and all the members here,I think I become clear:)

I wrote "protype" for the left one in my sketch,I still can not see 4 screws.But I can not say "100% for sure" for it.

Here are some pictures,these examples are the reason why I became to think "....from the biggining...." but, like Alan said many owners might have got the lamp cover at the counter after they have got the car.I can not say

"from the biggining" before I get true answer own myself for each of the car.

The yellow Z432 is still owned by an original owner(he is now 80 yeas old)

and he still drives it!! This car has covers "later" we talked about.This Z432 is really nice and original.

The silver Z432 is MY Z432 when it was in 1970's owned by 1st owner, pictured by a magazine.As we can see it ,at that time my Z432 has covers and "later" ones and still there are trace of screws on the lamp case. When I have my Z432 restored holes were treated for good.

And two Z432-Rs,Mr.Takeuchi's car has later ones,the other Mr.Otsuka's car has early ones.They both owners are not original owners,but they have owned them quite long time.

Mono color shot is from the book "Fairlady-2" , this Z432 is PS30-00021 and this car has later on the right side,early on the left side.From what we have learned,this car could have an accident on the right corner then replaced lamp cover and assorted parts?

kats

Edited December 3, 2010 by kats

[kats]

I love early.I have later.

Covers are NOS , but the NOS rings were not good for its shape.I had a set of used covers and rings,I put used covers with NOS not so good rings on yahoo Japan auction.I sold them cheap.

Now I have NOS covers and used very nice shape rings which were re-plated with tripple chrome,they looks very nice than the original.Can you see how the rings are shining?

I think typical problem for later OEM NOS cover set, is the rings are not good shape.The rings do not fit nicely with covers(but better than replica I think).Those covers of cource from Nissan, but looking at them side by side, used old ones are very nice shape while NOS ones are not.

How about E4126 ones in the boxes? Are they good shape?

And the lamp case in the picture is very old, I love its shape.It has sharp edge on the corner.

kats

[mgood]

Ron and all, I added some pictures from Kats and add a title to me thread and changed the picture.

[240ZGL]

So is anyone making reproduction lens. The aftermarkets do not have the right shape and there on the thin side.

[geezer]

I was wondering which is earlier than the other and about 1969 Tokyo motor show, these discussions make me think E4126 is for the one at the right on my poor sketch,and this is earlier than the other.At that time I was not for sure so I wrote "mystery" for the right one.

Hi kats, I thought that perhaps a little explanation would be helpful. I did not see your headlight cover comparison sketch until Esprist posted it to this thread. It is seldom that I miss one of your posts and I was surprised that I had never seen the drawing before. Then I was even more surprized that you had made the "mystery" notation on your drawing, relating to the example on the right. After reading the notation on the example in the center.."from the beginning", I finally realized why Esprist thought of "early", "later" differently, as you were unsure also. It was because of the E8726 suffix versions being common in Japan.

On the other hand, all over the counter sales in North America of headlight covers were the E4126 suffix version. As Mike B pointed out, that is the only version listed in the Competition Parts Catalogs as well as Black Dragon in later years. Every set that I ever seen that came up for sale were the E4126 suffix version.

I noticed the E4126 suffix version listed in the 1970 Nissan FairladyZ Parts Catalog long ago, but never gave it much thought until this thread was started and what I considered "early & later" were reversed.

Here is a scan of the last 2 pages of that parts catalog. The headlight covers are listed last under the heading of Option Parts. The english translations were written in by the original owner in 1970. I never did the math but it seems that these were high priced items, even back in 1970. Converted to todays pricing I bet $1200.00 US for a set isn't too far off in comparison. Notice the 16000 yen "each" price that has been written in.

[HS30-H]

I spread seeds and they have grown up...

They grew into a forest, Kats...!

OK, this subject has been bugging me more than a little - so I started to dig a bit deeper to see if I could come up with a different part number. I felt sure that somewhere I had seen an early part number reference for the covers, but I couldn't remember just where. After what seemed like an age of fruitless searching - with paperwork and reference material spread all over the floor and shelves ( what a mess ) - I sat back down again at my desk and looked straight at the front cover of the Nissan competition prep manual for the Fairlady Z 432-R. This is one of the first places I should have looked. I'd had it on the desk for the last couple of weeks, as I had needed some data for my 432-R replica project car. I couldn't see the forest for the trees....

Turn to pages 71 & 72 and there it is, a pair of new part numbers ( well, new to this thread at least I think ) and a reference to FOUR screws on each cover. The manual is dated February 1970.

So, we now have:

63900-E4100 SET HEAD LAMP COVER RH

63901-E4100 SET HEAD LAMP COVER LH

and also:

63920-E4100 PLATE NUT ( qty. 8 )

...however, there's no firm reference to the pattern / positioning of the mounting screws in this manual. You win some, you lose some.

My 'translation' is marked in red:

Alan T.

Edited December 4, 2010 by HS30-H

[geezer]

:beer:Incredible! That is some good digging right there!

Can we assume these are the "real early" version? Even if we don't yet have a better example of the mounting hole pattern, we at least know this version had 4 holes per side.

Good find Alan!