what would you do?

[gorillaFart]

This topic might appear to have been covered many times before, in many different ways, but in all my reading I feel that there still wasnt one that answered my dilemma

So, the thing is, i stripped my interior to bare metal, in preparation for paint and I removed the factory tar sound deadening. And it is not so much that i dont know what to do next, but what i would like is advice and/or opinions on how to achieve the best results as far as protection and appearance goes.

I am somewhat lucky enough that my floor pan area is not badly rusted. There are minor areas of rust, but the majority of the floor pan is in tact and needs no major work. So my question is, now that i am down to bare metal what would be the best next step? there are many ways to go about it, no right or wrong

option1: i have been thinking about epoxy primering the whole floorpan and interior, then adding an undercoat type material on top of the epoxy (i.e. rhino liner/lizard skin etc), then laying dynomat/sound deadening sheets or spray and leave it as so. and replace carpet

option2: i was thinking about laying por 15 (or an equivalent rust converter) on the whole interior on the bare metal, then just attempting to top-coat it to match the exterior, then replace the carpet

option3: Lay por15 (or an equivalent rust converter) on small rusted areas only, then epoxy the rest of the interior and floor pan, and then top coat and replace carpet

option4: lay epoxy then sound deadening spray with or without topcoat then replace carpet

im sure theres a few more combinations i could think of, or i can just redo the factory process which appears to be epoxy primer, topcoat, sound deadening sheets. but por15 the whole interior/floor pan is not an option, thats why i have different processes and options in which I would like to explore

Any advice, or opinons are welcomed. All help is very much appreciated, thank you!. :classic:

[d240zx2]

Forgive my ignorance, but why isn't POR-15 an option for the total interior if you're going to cover it up?

[gorillaFart]

There is no ignorance in your question at all. The reason why putting por15 in the whole interior isnt an option is because my whole interior is not rusted. I would rather use an epoxy primer that provides superior corrosion protection and adhesion. The por15 is more for converting light rusted areas where lets say, you could not access completely to remove all the rust. And while Epoxy primer can cover up very light rust, i wouldnt risk using epoxy for that. Thats where my option to apply por15 or an equal rust coverter brand to the small areas of rust, then epoxying the rest. Also, Epoxy primer is the closest thing we can get to a factory E-coat (even tho our cars were not in those early days). Does that clear up any hazy questions you may have had?

Also, its piece of mind for me knowing that even though you can not see the floorpans etc when they're covered, I like knowing they are painted to match. But at the same time thats why I am asking for the opinions of everyone on what they think would be the best protected and asthetic route.

Edited January 1, 2011 by gorillaFart

[EScanlon]

...SNIP... I would rather use an epoxy primer that provides superior corrosion protection and adhesion. The por15 is more for converting light rusted areas

...SNIP... And while Epoxy primer can cover up very light rust, i wouldnt risk using epoxy for that.

...SNIP...Also, Epoxy primer is the closest thing we can get to a factory E-coat (even tho our cars were not in those early days). Does that clear up any hazy questions you may have had?

Also, its piece of mind for me knowing that even though you can not see the floorpans etc when they're covered, I like knowing they are painted to match. But at the same time thats why I am asking for the opinions of everyone on what they think would be the best protected and asthetic route.

You've got it backwards.

ITEM 1: Epoxy primer is NOT better corrosion protection. If it were, then we wouldn't EVER have had a rust problem on ANY car it's applied on. POR ENCAPSULATES and SEALS the rust, it's not a converter. The Metal Prep Acid Wash is more of a "converter".

ITEM 2: If it's NOT good enough to SEAL light rust, then what makes you think it's good enough to protect un-rusted metal? Epoxy Primer is first and foremost a PRIMER.

ITEM 3: Epoxy primer isn't rust-proofing, although it does provide superior adhesion and protection than standard primers it doesn't replace what POR, Zero Rust or Rust-Mort are designed for. Those products are designed to render inert what rust they cover and at the same time provide a degree of rust-proofing that Epoxy isn't designed for.

POR properly applied will adhere BETTER than the Epoxy. If you time the application of POR and your top-coat, you can actually apply your finish color on top of the POR.

POR when cured can be so hard as to require thread tapping of any machine thread you might have covered with it. Epoxy will let you "force" the screw thread to start, POR will actually strip the screw (I've done it).

I would clean the bare metal using the POR process (Marine Clean followed by Metal Prep). You need to scuff the painted areas properly to achieve a surface that the POR will stick to. If it's shiny, it won't adhere. Then paint the whole floor surface with POR. Let it cure, then apply your choice of tar-mat sound deadener, Fat-Mat, Q-Pad, Dynamat, Brown Bread et al. Now you can top coat everything that's left with your choice of color to match the exterior, but IMO you'd be wasting money on this step.

FWIW

E

[gorillaFart]

You've got it backwards.

ITEM 1: Epoxy primer is NOT better corrosion protection. If it were, then we wouldn't EVER have had a rust problem on ANY car it's applied on. POR ENCAPSULATES and SEALS the rust, it's not a converter. The Metal Prep Acid Wash is more of a "converter".

ITEM 2: If it's NOT good enough to SEAL light rust, then what makes you think it's good enough to protect un-rusted metal? Epoxy Primer is first and foremost a PRIMER.

ITEM 3: Epoxy primer isn't rust-proofing, although it does provide superior adhesion and protection than standard primers it doesn't replace what POR, Zero Rust or Rust-Mort are designed for. Those products are designed to render inert what rust they cover and at the same time provide a degree of rust-proofing that Epoxy isn't designed for.

POR properly applied will adhere BETTER than the Epoxy. If you time the application of POR and your top-coat, you can actually apply your finish color on top of the POR.

POR when cured can be so hard as to require thread tapping of any machine thread you might have covered with it. Epoxy will let you "force" the screw thread to start, POR will actually strip the screw (I've done it).

I would clean the bare metal using the POR process (Marine Clean followed by Metal Prep). You need to scuff the painted areas properly to achieve a surface that the POR will stick to. If it's shiny, it won't adhere. Then paint the whole floor surface with POR. Let it cure, then apply your choice of tar-mat sound deadener, Fat-Mat, Q-Pad, Dynamat, Brown Bread et al. Now you can top coat everything that's left with your choice of color to match the exterior, but IMO you'd be wasting money on this step.

FWIW

E

the problem that causes concern for me is a lot of threads that i've read concerning Por15, i've never gotten a solid answer. Whether it be ClassicZcars, the hamb, the samba. there are many that swear by por15, and there are many that claim it has failed them. And although you argue my statement about epoxy primer not being the best corrosion and adherance product. Sooner or later, i believe mother nature will do her duty. no matter what is protecting the substrate.

As far as bare un-rusted metal goes, i still believe epoxy primers to be the strongest and best product over a rust encapsulator. It is used to cover bare metal all the time. No one uses por15 and like products as a basis to paint a vehicle. Maybe i was wrong when i said it may stop or encapsulate rust, or convert light rust, but i do believe for clean bare metal, it is the closest thing we will come to a factory E-coat. It is an industry standard to spray a bare panel, or a whole car that has been sand/media/bead blasted with epoxy, not por15. but maybe the comparison between Epoxy Primer to rust encapsulators should not be made.

in the end of the day, these products will always be up for debate. but i was not here to argue the fact. i know what I want to do with my car. and thats to restore it as close as possible to factory condition. thats why i mentioned Por15 as not being a complete option for me. small areas of rust sure. But not the entire interior. If i am still ill-informed, feel free to correct me.

Edited January 1, 2011 by gorillaFart

[geezer]

I am in agreement with this statement..."As far as bare un-rusted metal goes, i still believe epoxy primers to be the strongest and best product over a rust encapsulator"...but only if the bare metal has been properly etched, either chemically or mechanically, as well as properly cleaned/prepped. A good epoxy primer will be a two part formulation and is quite different than an "E-coat" used in production paint operations. The E in "E-coat" refers to the electric current used to make the coating flow into, onto all bare metal surfaces when submerged into the tank, similar to the principal used for electrostatic spraying or powdercoating, except using liquified materials. There is no better method that I know of than "E-coating" for high volume production but for our restorations the next best is a two part epoxy primer but only as stated earlier, the metal being properly cleaned and prepped. Also myself, I don't like using my expensive two part epoxies in areas that are not going to be seen or finish painted. A two part epoxy will not be as effective as a product such as Por 15 or Rust Bullet or other products designed to adhere to bare metal or converted rust areas. The areas these products are best used will not be seen or finished painted for the most part, but I have used Rust Bullet, lightly sanded at a later date and then blended in with my DP90 two part epoxy.

I guess what I am trying to get at is, each of these products have a definite advantage depending where and how you are going to use them. The rusty Eastern car I am working on now has Por 15, Rust Bullet, PPG two part epoxy, spray on bedliner and several other materials used on it. I think the most important thing is good adhesion and compatibility of the materials used.

[EScanlon]

...snip.... there are many that swear by por15, and there are many that claim it has failed them....

If you follow the directions, rarely have I seen a problem nor heard of someone having a problem... regardless of the product.

I have heard of people using the democratic fallacy* (not political) to arse-ume that they can substitute something else and it will be "just as good" and then report having problems.

(* The Democratic fallacy:

Because I am entitled to an opinion, it is equal to those who have experienced or studied the subject.

Therefore I can ignore what they say and rely on my arse-umptions.

This is NOT a political statement.)

.And although you argue my statement about epoxy primer not being the best corrosion and adherance product. Sooner or later, i believe mother nature will do her duty. no matter what is protecting the substrate.

Having sprayed too many GALLONS of Epoxy primer to even think of counting them, I know first hand it's adhesion properties and it's corrosion properties.

It's adhesion is unarguable... over properly prepared surfaces and even some improperly prepared surfaces. Whether that's bare metal, primer, paint or whatever, it will stick well. However, it is not a rust proofer. It is not an encapsulator nor is it a rust convertor.

.

As far as bare un-rusted metal goes, i still believe epoxy primers to be the strongest and best product over a rust encapsulator. It is used to cover bare metal all the time. No one uses por15 and like products as a basis to paint a vehicle. Maybe i was wrong when i said it may stop or encapsulate rust, or convert light rust, but i do believe for clean bare metal, it is the closest thing we will come to a factory E-coat. It is an industry standard to spray a bare panel, or a whole car that has been sand/media/bead blasted with epoxy, not por15. but maybe the comparison between Epoxy Primer to rust encapsulators should not be made.

POR, Zero-Rust, RustMort etc are simply NOT in the same category as Epoxy primer.

Applying Epoxy over a Rust encapsulator is an excellent idea, as long as you prep the surface to accept it properly. Whether that is a chemical process or a mechanical process, it must be done.

That being said, I have absolutely no problem applying Epoxy over bare, acid etched metal, and agree with you that it is a perfectly good use for it. I've done exactly that and will do it again whenever the occasion arises.

However, when the metal has already shown some rust, and it is impossible to remove it completely, or I'm going to be "spot-treating" as you mention you would be... I'll paint the whole surface... with POR or the like. To me, it simply isn't worth the trouble to prep the individual areas. It's easier, and in the long run, faster to treat the complete floor/interior with POR than to spot it only to have to then finish with Epoxy.

However, I concede that I won't do that on the EXTERIOR of the car.

POR, and the other rust converters/encapsulators are generally thicker and of a finish consistency such that it would be totally impractical to try to use it as a substrate for an exterior paint job.

.

in the end of the day, these products will always be up for debate. but i was not here to argue the fact. i know what I want to do with my car. and thats to restore it as close as possible to factory condition. thats why i mentioned Por15 as not being a complete option for me. small areas of rust sure. But not the entire interior. If i am still ill-informed, feel free to correct me.

The list of Options you cited in your first message point out that you have questions/doubts as to some of the characteristics of Epoxy, POR, Rust Encapsulators, Under-Coating and Sound proofing/attenuation.

I'm just responding to your doubts/concerns as to using POR vs. Epoxy.

Ron says much the same in his post:

I am in agreement with this statement..."As far as bare un-rusted metal goes, i still believe epoxy primers to be the strongest and best product over a rust encapsulator"...but only if the bare metal has been properly etched, either chemically or mechanically, as well as properly cleaned/prepped. .

Exactly.

.... There is no better method that I know of than "E-coating" for high volume production but for our restorations the next best is a two part epoxy primer but only as stated earlier, the metal being properly cleaned and prepped. Also myself, I don't like using my expensive two part epoxies in areas that are not going to be seen or finish painted. A two part epoxy will not be as effective as a product such as Por 15 or Rust Bullet or other products designed to adhere to bare metal or converted rust areas. The areas these products are best used will not be seen or finished painted for the most part, but I have used Rust Bullet, lightly sanded at a later date and then blended in with my DP90 two part epoxy.

Three excellent points.

E-coating vs. Epoxy; Cost of each and Epoxy vs. POR/Rust Bullet effectiveness.

I guess what I am trying to get at is, each of these products have a definite advantage depending where and how you are going to use them. The rusty Eastern car I am working on now has Por 15, Rust Bullet, PPG two part epoxy, spray on bedliner and several other materials used on it. I think the most important thing is good adhesion and compatibility of the materials used.

While it is best to use ONE method throughout, sometimes you work a car in pieces/sections and you haven't much choice but to address items on a piece meal basis. But as Ron mentions, the most important thing is good adhesion and compatibility.

You might argue the individual items/points, but you asked for opinions. That's what you're getting.

For my 2¢ POR the whole floor, then use some form of sound deadening, whether Dynamat, or other bituminous coating and finish it with a good carpet. (Lizard Skin / Rhino Liner are different products that try to combine various characteristics into one and their cost reflects it.) I don't think painting the floor to match the exterior is necessary.

FWIW

E

[JohnnyO]

For my 2¢ POR the whole floor, then use some form of sound deadening, whether Dynamat, or other bituminous coating and finish it with a good carpet. (Lizard Skin / Rhino Liner are different products that try to combine various characteristics into one and their cost reflects it.) I don't think painting the floor to match the exterior is necessary.

E

This is exactly what I did last year with great results, although I did choose to paint the floors and tunnel while I was painting the rest of the interior. My reasoning was that it was like this from the factory and I wanted to mimic originality as closely as possible for the entire project.

John

[geezer]

While it is best to use ONE method throughout, sometimes you work a car in pieces/sections and you haven't much choice but to address items on a piece meal basis.

This is so true in most cases, especially when we are talking about "hobby" cars that get worked on in spurts when we find the time. I know my car has been approached as a series of individual projects. It just wouldn't have been sensible in my thinking, to blast an area larger than I could do any needed metal fabrication, welding and prep work before covering the bare metal in a timely manner. There is nothing more frustrating to me than not getting the bare metal covered before rust starts forming again. It happens to all of us; we bite off more than we should, until we learn better.

A few thoughts come to mind. The pic below was taken when I first started scrapping the undercoating from the underside of my Z. Much of the original silver paint was still intact but there were many areas that needed to be blasted to remove the rust. I should have left the intact paint alone and spot blasted where needed and then used a product such as Por 15 on the bare metal. It would have went much more quickly, but just starting out on the project, what did I do? I used paint remover then blasted the entire underside. It wasn't easy getting that paint off. I should have just left it. Lesson learned. Just remember that Por 15, Rust Bullet or epoxy primer serves no purpose if applied on top of intact paint. Whatever you decide to use, just apply it to the bare metal since you want to finish with body color anyhow. I like the idea of using Por 15, then getting the color applied while it will still adhere, but I can see that could sometimes be hard to do. That was one of the reasons that I used Rust Bullet. I could allow it to completely cure, then months later lightly sand with 220, then coat with epoxy primer. This is helpful in areas such as hingside door jambs, as an example, where a transition to finish paint is made.

I'm just trying to give you a few of the options you seek. Another area that I have finished is the inner cowl/chimney. It was downright nasty and rusted out badly. After welding in the repair pieces, I experimented somewhat, by brushing on PPG epoxy primer, Permatex 2 part epoxy adhesive/sealant and then topped it off with Rust Check spray on bedliner. I think this repair will outlive me for sure. I plan on following Enrique's example of draining water away from this area as well.

Edited January 1, 2011 by geezer
forgot pic

[gorillaFart]

However, when the metal has already shown some rust, and it is impossible to remove it completely, or I'm going to be "spot-treating" as you mention you would be... I'll paint the whole surface... with POR or the like. To me, it simply isn't worth the trouble to prep the individual areas. It's easier, and in the long run, faster to treat the complete floor/interior with POR than to spot it only to have to then finish with Epoxy.

this is very true, and will be taken into total consideration. i gota factor in time into this. because i can fix a rusty spot, then por15 that to get it out of the way. the rest of the interior will take some time to clean, prep, clean, spray. so that could be addressed later. for sake of not having to buy two products (por15 and epoxy) i could still just por15 the whole area when i get to it as well.

For my 2¢ POR the whole floor, then use some form of sound deadening, whether Dynamat, or other bituminous coating and finish it with a good carpet. (Lizard Skin / Rhino Liner are different products that try to combine various characteristics into one and their cost reflects it.) I don't think painting the floor to match the exterior is necessary.

FWIW

E

would you say for purists or period/era correct restoration-ists, matching the interior to the exterior is not much of a concern? i would like to do the best job i can as far as asthetics and protection thats why. but if i can save money on products and not paint the interior, then why not

...It just wouldn't have been sensible in my thinking, to blast an area larger than I could do any needed metal fabrication, welding and prep work before covering the bare metal in a timely manner.

that is very true. many people make the mistake of stripping a bigger area then they can work on be4 rust starts forming again.

[EScanlon]

...snip...

would you say for purists or period/era correct restoration-ists, matching the interior to the exterior is not much of a concern? ...snip...

I'll have to pass on giving you an answer to this.

Not that I don't think it's a valid question, but I can't explain the driving factors behind that mind set.

To me, repairing or refreshing the car is more important than repainting unseen areas to match or fool future viewers/buyers. If someone wants to paint the interior surfaces with the same paint as the exterior, I don't have a problem with it. I just simply don't see it as a vital requirement.

FWIW

E

[gorillaFart]

well either way EScanlon, i agree with you. Even though a die hard enthusiast may want to color match the interior to the exterior (i would like to also) i believe it isnt the most important thing as far as repainting unseen areas

But, would it be best to brush on por 15? or spray it on with a paint gun? I was thinking of getting a harbor freight paint gun to spray the por 15, but i dont know if the product is a thin or thick product. I like that they made it brushable, that lets me know that its a true DIY-er for those that dont have compressors. And does this product lay out smooth, or is it really texturized?

thanks again!