LHD 240Z in 1969 TOKYO auto show

[Ken]

Hi Kats:

Last summer during a Car Show in Syracuse, New York a TV crew from Tokyo TV covered the show. There were five or six members in the crew. Very interested in our opinion of the Datsun.

They did a six minute interview with me and my 1972 SilverBullet240Z. Wanted to know how I had heard about Datsun and how I liked the car. What modifications I had made upon the car and a great bit of detail both about Datsun and the car. Have you by any chance seen this coverage on Tokyo TV?

[HS30-H]

Hi everyone,

Ken - I have a copy video of a Japanese TV programme about the Z ( not the "Project X" NHK programme ) that might be the one you are talking about. Have you ever seen it? I don't think its the "Sunday Project" show that Kats is talking about, as it does not seem to have anything much about Ishihara on it. If you have never seen it, I could get a copy for you. Maybe you are in it!

Kats, if you want to get a discussion going about Matsuo san then I would suggest that you make a completely separate thread. Maybe we should start yet another called "Goertz - the lying Count".....! I really want the world to know how he has stolen the credit for "designing" the S30.

QUOTE:

"I,really found out DATSUN was not well known in some nation

as some of you said, in France or other nations in Europe.

And in Australia neiter.

Even in the U.K. DATSUN was not wellcomed,right?"

I think the "Datsun" brand name WAS well-known in the UK, at least by the late Sixties / early Seventies period. The point is that they were looked down upon by motoring journalists and the general public, even to the point of ridicule. I can say that the "Datsun" brand is STILL a joke for many people here, and they have no idea about the history of the company or its origins. As far as I can tell, this was not the case in the USA.

As I said in a previous post, there always seems to have been an anti Japanese-car prejudice here in the UK. Even now, I still read and hear comments that mention the word "copying" in particular. It would appear that the people who make these comments know almost nothing about Japan, and even less about its car-making history. I particulary notice it in relation to motorsports, and I am reminded of the many smug English people who are still convinced that they "taught the Japanese all they know". Chief amongst these has to be Mr Tony Fall ( the well-known rally driver of the Sixties and Seventies ) who drove the Works rally 240Z's in many events. He still recounts the story of how he "taught" the Japanese Works rally mechanics ".....the difference between Oversteer and Understeer.........". This is from a person who appears in all other ways to be quite sane. I am sorry to say that people even seem to believe him.................

I really don't see that the blame for the decline in sales during the late Seventies and early Eighties period ( the start of Nissan's long slide into trouble ) can be laid solely on Ishihara. I think it must have been a combination of many factors that he and his executives contributed to, as well as natural conditions. Perhaps we ought to be circumspect about turning the whole thing into a Good Guy / Bad Guy gunfight at the OK Corral ( with Ishihara in the black hat and Mr K. in the white hat ). I must say I sometimes feel slightly uneasy about the hero-worship of Mr Katayama. I am sure that he deserves more than his share of praise ( he was a visionary who transcended the normal Japanese working practices ) but it all seems to get a bit like a "cult of personality" type of situation. I hardly ever hear the name of Mr Soichi Kawazoe mentioned, despite the fact that he so obviously played a very large part in Katayama and NMC USA's success. I find it most odd that Katayama gets described as the "Father of the Z", and poor Matsuo gets left as the "Mother". The names of the other people involved in the project are hardly ever even hinted at.......

When Nate mentioned the story of some people thinking that "Nissan bought Datsun" ( which is a great story and a really good point ) I am sure that what it means is that many people had NO IDEA that Nissan and Datsun were essentially the same company. It reminds me of another story that I heard, in which one of the first American franchised dealers was selling Datsuns and telling his customers that they were from Germany. He was basically cashing in on the success of Volkswagen in the USA during the Fifties and Sixties, and he found that his customers thought that the "Datsun" name sounded as though it might be German! This is interesting, as Volkswagen's policies in foreign territories really blazed the trail for companies like Datsun and its quite clear that Kawazoe and Katayama learned a lot from what VW had done in sales and supporting services for the USA market.

I've tried not to speak on behalf of the USA side in answer to Kats' questions - as its not my business to do that. I'm very interested to hear the views from that side of the world too. It certainly seems that the image of the Datsun brand in the USA was quite different to that of the rest of the world.

Regards,

Alan T.

[kats]

Good evening,everyone.

Ken, I do not think I have seen it before. I will try to find it asking

my friends. And I will find you and?@your Z in that TV.

It is exciting for me.

Alan, I agree with you. Let's start new thread for Mr. MATSUO a chief designer of S30.

And your post is very interesting as usual. But I think I need to read again and again and again.I want to understand presicely.

I am still not clear for my question.

"Did the people in the U.S. feel sad when DATSUN was deleted?"

Is this a question which I should not ask?Is it a taboo here?

I want to say everyone why I am asking this.

The answer is I love Z and DATSUN so much. I just want the the people in the U.S. to say "we felt sad so much!"

Or if the people did not feel sad, I want the people to say

"we love Z so much!"

Best regards,

kats

[2ManyZs]

I think the US market was less saddened by the fact that Nissan decided to drop the Datsun badge for the simple reason that we are so used to seeing all the different brands of cars here that are built by the same parent company. Most of the true Datsun lovers were more concerned that the Nissan being brought here were becoming less the simple, affordable, quality cars that we were used to and that they were becoming something that followed along with what everyone else was doing at the time.

Most anyone who really knows their cars knew all along that Datsuns were actually built by Nissan. We have General Motors here that builds cars and trucks under the names of Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Cadillac and Ford does the same thing under more than one nameplate. So when we talk about brand identification it's a bit different than some of the other markets that have only one or two brands being built by the same manufacturer.

I think after losing the guidance of Mr. K's marketing genius when he retired in 74 was as much a fact in the Datsun name being taken off the cars as much as anything. Mr. K had built a reputation for Datsun with his advertising campaign, and with his input into what cars Nissan should build to export, that it would have taken someone with his equal passion, and insight to have saved Datsun. Datsun had some of their best sales years while Mr. K was President of Nissan North America, and within 5 years of his retirement, the Z and some of the other cars had changed so dramatially that while sales were still very good, the cars had lost their "mystique".

If General Motors can keep the Corvette alive after all these years, I see no reason why Nissan couldn't have kept the Z alive and true to it's intent. GM did one thing correctly, they set up a team of engineers and marketing people to concentrate on just the Corvette. I think the Z could have gone on almost as well as the Corvette if it hadn't been lost in the beaurocracy of Nissan.

Nissan at the time of killing off the Datsun nameplate was worried about losing it's identity by having more than one namplate affixed to its cars. Nissan wanted people to know who was building the cars it sold, yet today they have done an about face, and it has helped them. At one time there were only Honda, Toyota, and Datsuns being sold here in the US. Now we have Acura, Infinity, and Lexus to further confuse the consumers into thinking they are getting something better than what is sold a block down the street. I think the biggest problem with the manufacturers now days is the fact they want to compete at times with themselves. I guess a lot of this could be dropped on the shoulders of the so-called "marketing geniuses" they have on their payrolls.

I think if Mr. K's replacement had had his vision, and dedication you would still see Datsuns in the showrooms today. He may not truly be the "Father of the Z" as he is called, but without his marketing skills and his insight, I doubt we would have seen the Z make the mark it did on the industry, or if it had, it wouldn't be the Z that we all know and love.

[CoastGuardZ]

Hey Kats!

I was at the same car show that Ken was at with T.V. Tokyo. Curious to know what became of the footage.

Ken, just wanted to say your car is fantastic! Really beautiful. You had the European taillights, right?

I can say i was confused a little durring the transition, I was just a wee little lad when my neighbors had a Datsun 720 pickup and a Datsun by Nissan 200SX. My Father understood and did his best to explain it to me. Of course Any moron had to know in 1968 when they saw Nissan on top of the 1600 in the 510 that Datsun was Nissan...or did they. This is just after Carrol Shelby was putting Ford engines inside A/C cars. Many people were confused I'm sure. Then throw in that Nissan was a japanese textile company...What do they have to do with cars? Now they make Cars Forklifts and Textiles. Chevrolet hasn't always been part of General Motors.

So here you go Kats... I love Z's. America loves Z's. A guy at work today asked if I had seen the new Z. Then starts to tell me how he remembered the old 240 260 and 280 Z's. It made me feel warm all over. We love the Z's. Not everybody has a favorable opinion of Datsun, though. Too bad for them I say!

Lets also remember that Datsun also brought the first Compact pickup to the States. And I'm getting ready to buy the new version of said Truck. 03' Frontier 4x4. By the way It's damn cold and Snowing here in Buffalo, NY.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!!

Nate

[Mr Camouflage]

Originally posted by 2ManyZs

Guess he gave up trying to fight them and joined them....

Well actually they changed the rules so only V8 could race.

And lets not forget Glenn Seaton was doing pretty well against the V8's in a R30(31?) Skyline FJ40 (4 cyl) Turbo back in the late 80's.

Kats, the Datsun Brand was very well known in Australia, as is the Nissan brand today. Everyone knows Datsun is Nissan.

[Sean Dezart]

Most of the true Datsun lovers were more concerned that the Nissan being brought here were becoming less the simple, affordable, quality cars that we were used to and that they were becoming something that followed along with what everyone else was doing at the time. by 2manyzs !

The situation in France (if people allow me to speak on their behalf) is that thier is no image left at all. No interesting cars, just Primeras, Altinos, Micras, and of course the 4x4s !

A very bland line up which they try to groups together with the new front air intake/descending bonnet.

I hope with all the world that Nissan and in particuler Europe push to have something that people will appreciate even if it is out of most peoples buget. Of course, better still if they brought out a new fairlady roadster, cheaper and less powerful than the 350Z.

Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Mitsubishi all produce AND MARKET thier sports cars here ! I hope Renaults' sporting success gives them the confidence to try the same thing.

Datsuns were well known here and in the main very appreciated even though ownership went against the grain of De Gaulle inspired national pride.

Alan, do you remember the image and bigotry we fought against in the early '90s until the Skyline arrived and was road tested ?

[kats]

Hi everyone,

A happy new year is coming.I am sorry for this long blank.

Nate, thank you very much for your words.These are what I have been looking for.I felt at ease.And I realized I was stupid.

Yes,we love Z's.So many Zs were sold in the world and still are owned and loved.This is amazing and true.

I did not need to ask.We love Z's.

2ManyZs,your last post is very interesting.And I agree with your comments for Mr.K.

Mr.K did a great job in the U.S. According to what I saw TVs and I read books in japan,Japanese people had never known this due to Mr.ISHIHARA even NISSAN had hidden Mr.K.

Though Mr.K made a great profit for NIASSAN, they thought Mr.K was a taboo for their company.

When they celebrated their 50th, they issued an anniversary book.There were many NISSAN's milestone cars with a lot of explanations and photos.

But Z's,there was only ONE photo.Even worse,you could see only Z's front section while 2 ladies unveiling the car cover.

Another thing,NISSAN did not make any announcement when Mr.K was awarded the the prize of The hall of fame.

Can you believe these cruel things?

I think MR.K had been hidden by NISSAN(Mr.ISHIHARA)that is why so few Japanese people and journalists had known "true" of Z and DATSUN. I mean "true" is Z is international car.Z was aimed for international market.Most japanese people and journalists had never known this.

Journalists may say they know Z's international value.

But I do not think they understand it.Because they have been reported very few things about Z in the world.

They always talk about "fairlady-z".I think if they want to talk about core of Z,they can not pass the story of export model.

I would like to amend my recognitions about DATSUN in overseas.

Many people here adviced me,

thank you very much Mr Camouflage,Sean,Ben, Alan,Victor and many other friends here.

I think DATSUN was well known in many countries.Just I can not say it in a word.Situations are little bit complicated.

Thank you all,happy new year.

kats

[Sean Dezart]

Hi Katz and a happy new year to you !

Datsun was well though of, even if people didn't like their domestic industries suffering from the imports but then again, no-one put a gun to peoples heads in order to sell them - they sold themselves.

However, the point I'm getting to is that not everyone is clear as to what happened to Datsun - check out this wegb page which states that Datsun was bought by Nissan !

I haven't worked out what the site is yet but it is disappointing mis-information from Japan fans !

[Doehring]

Here in Germany in the early 70s there was - as Alan said for GB - a big anti-japanese cars prejudice. The big advantage of japanese cars in these days was their low price for a fully equipped car. End of the 60s I bought an Honda S 800 Coupe, a great car compared to Fiats, BMW 700, Midgets or Spitfires or even Alfas and I did a lot of races with the car, but people always looked at me like a fool driving a japanese car. There was only one japanese car that had a better image, the 240 Z! Why, because of it's Safari Rally success. When they changed the name to Nissan the management here had to spend a lot of money for the new image and that became worse and not better. Nissan is for tedious "bread and butter" cars and not even the ZX could change that - too expensive here in the country of BMW, Mercedes ,Porsche and - nowadays - Audi.

When I take my 240Z to an event a lot of people, especially people in the 50s or 60s,

come to me and say "That was a great car, it's a pity that Datsun died". You see, they still don't bring Datsun and Nissan in a line whereas the young people don't know Datsun and Nissan isn't of great interest to them - exept the little Micra ("March" in the US, I think), a ladies favorite. Why did Nissan never care for it's history ? I hope the french influence will change that!

By the way Fred, I think the Renault share is 44.5% of Nissan.

Greetings from Germany

Rolf

[260z]

In Finland datsun is or was a strong brand. It did suffer as al other japanese cars from rust issues.... What did people think about Nissan deleting datsun...I bet that if I asked about this most people would not know what to say. I think that many people think that they are two different makes...Datsun and Nissan

We do have many NissanDatsun badged Cedrics, Laurels and Cherrys here so it might be a bit confusing. I think that I shall make a thread on our Finnish NissanDatsun board and ask about it!!

The first Datsuns that sold good in here were the bluebirds and Datsun 1000.

Maybe the best known Datsuns are 100a. There are still plenty of this on our roads. It came to finland as coupe, 2 nad 4 door and estate.

Other well known model is the 1200(sunny) This model came to Finland only as 2 door sedan and coupe. It is widely known as "finn Datsun" here. I dont know what is the stry behind that nickname...

Z was not launced too loudly...As far as I know..After all I was not even born yet. There was an testdrive in nationally big car magazine TM. What is weird is that the testdrive was in 70 or 71 might be even in 72 and it was only 2 pages. Normally Tm has tesdrives that are atleast 4 pages.

Z is not very well known here. In my old Z I did not have any ambelms and people came guessing if it was a porsche or ferrari or jaguar...I had blast telling that it is an old datsun!! Some older people do remember Z as 70's supercar. This is due to the fact that one of the first "Flying Finns" Rauno Aaltonen drove z in nissan factory team.

240 z was imported to Finland as follows. 71(5 units), 72(41 units) ja 73(5 units). In case of 260 z i have only one years import figure that is 77 (1 unit)!!!

Here are some of the cars in finland http://www.dnsf.org Go to the galleria....

Here are some pics of Japanes car meeting in Finland

http://koti.mbnet.fi/snk/Finn-JAE_2002/page_01.htm

[Victor Laury]

Here are some pics of Japanes car meeting in Finland

Wow! Those cars look much better with the smaller chrome bumpers compared to the giant rubberbabybuggiebumpers their U.S. counterparts were equipped with. I never thought the 120Y could look so good. The 610 is downright sexy with the Euro bumper. The Cedric taxi is very cool. It's also regrettable that the US didn't get the 67 - ? 100a. That car was a jewel of simplicity.

I think it's neat to see someone at a car show proudly displaying his F-10 cherry!