got screwed on a 280Z!

[eatingZ]

hey all,

i got screwed on the purchase of a 1977 280Z. it's a very nice car, 41,000 orig miles, california car. pretty rust free overall, running well, all kinds of good aspects.

the problem is i never received the title, yes i was a bit too trustworthy, and a bit naive. my fault. at any rate nothing has worked to get this original title for this car, which is in the 2nd owners name, i am the 4th owner. the guy who sold it to me is off the face of the earth now. i do know that the title has a lien on it from that 2nd owner.

i am curious if anyone has any advice on this matter. more directly i am interested in acquiring another cheap 280Z that has a clean title and all intact vin plates..

please help if you know where i can find this cheap Z with the parts i need.

[psdenno]

Correct me if I'm wrong......

You bought a car from someone who didn't own it. You're looking for a cheap similar car with clear title and VIN plates. This is heading down a very dark road.

Can you contact the person who holds the title to the Z you bought?

Dennis

[CW240Z]

Maybe instead of trying to get another clear car you could pay 15 bucks and look up the VIN on your car. You can get the background info on it like ownership history, where it was sold at, and who actually owns it. Then contact the guy that the title is under. My 2 cents.

[SteveJ]

You didn't, by chance, buy the car from someone named James Burgess, did you?

[ajmcforester]

Ya your first statement should call for an investigation if you buy another Z, that can land you jail time and how were you going to change the firewall vin numbers to match??

Let exhaust the legal rout first!!!

OK lets build the history of ownership as best as you can this will help track down a copy of the old tiles or help you get a non-savage title if possible. Don't post the specifics listed below but give us a yes and no answer would help. Also right in order of time all the info below to organize it.

Did you get a bill of sale or letter or receipt when you purchased the car?

Were was the car sold and what state was the seller from?

Do you have the old plate numbers?

Did you get any insurance cards?

Do you have info on the dealer that sold the car originally or even the original owners info?

[eatingZ]

this is where i'm at:

i know the names of the 2nd and 3rd owners,

the plates from the 2nd owner are still on the car,

the dealer that sold her the car seems to out of biz,

i can not find her address or any other info,

i think the 3rd owner might know the 2nd owner and helped her out with selling the car...

the car is not stolen, just in some weird limbo,

the California dmv has given me info about the status of the car letting me know that there is a lien on the car from the 2nd owner, and that the title may still be in the 1st owners name,

i do have a bill of sale from the 3rd owner,

i am at a loss for how to proceed other than some creative vin exchange..

.............................

[eatingZ]

i should say, i have not been able to contact the 3rd owner for a while now,

if he cooperated i could have him do the 3 or 4 things (send certified letter to 2nd owner, fill out specific dmv forms, etc.) to get the title in his name, then to mine, but he is not willing to reply to my contact, so the proper channels have run out as far as i can tell.

[fandsw]

i should say, i have not been able to contact the 3rd owner for a while now,

if he cooperated i could have him do the 3 or 4 things (send certified letter to 2nd owner, fill out specific dmv forms, etc.) to get the title in his name, then to mine, but he is not willing to reply to my contact, so the proper channels have run out as far as i can tell.

Proper channels have NOT run out, contact your local law enforcement agency.

[Zed Head]

I believe that the only two people that matter as far as getting clear title are the person named on the title and the person holding the lien. The person named on the title can release interest in the car, and the person holding the lien can release claim to the car.

If the 2nd and 3rd owners aren't one of those, they only matter because they've taken other people's money, selling somehting that doesn't really belong to them. The state DMV doesn't care who they are, they are essentially undocumented as far as car ownership is concerned.

Edit - You might have a case for fraud against the guy who sold you the car, depending on what your Bill of Sale says.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Zed Head

[ajmcforester]

The hardest part of this is your in PA and it sounds like the car was sold in CA. First off always get a bill of sale, by chance did you use a check that actually is a contract and will help you out and act as the bill of sale. This possible lean might be a savior and a headache. It might be the car was sold out of the lean holder without their consent. The title is possession and possession is 9/10 the law. When a loan is taken on a car the person giving the loan will hold the title as collateral and would technically be the owner of the car till the loan is paid. The person with the loan would then need to pay off the loan before they could sell the car. In other wards you might not own this car. Who ever put the lean on the car more than likely owns the car. Changing the plate on the car now sounds like a very bad idea.

This could be very bad or not so bad, and I hope you got a great deal, because you more than likely need to pay money to keep the car. The responsible thing to do is find out who owns the lean and contact them, remember they don't want the car just what they were owed. Last time I check to see if their was a lean on a car I used my bank they helped me out and got me the information (I found an abandon car I wanted, and thought I'd see if I was worth it, it had a loan and to pay it off wasn't worth the car). Banks would also have incite and can give you input on how to get the car title especially with the lean on the car, they deal with these things all the time or at least someone in the company does (credit unions are also a great resource). Hopefully who ever gave the loan out will work with you, I'd hope they understand that both of you are victims and will cut a good deal with you and just cut their losses on the loan. Remember they don't want the car they want the money they loaned out, so you have some leverage till they reach the price they could sell at auction for minus cost of setup for auction and auction house costs. The other thing they might do is ask you to pay the remainder of the loan (more than likely minus interest).

[JLPurcell]

Three words:

Local Law Enforcement

Call them, Period:ermm:

You are on the verge of conspiracy to defraud, I believe is the correct charge.

"i am at a loss for how to proceed other than some creative vin exchange"

[EScanlon]

Geeez.... the amount of misinformation in these posts... where to begin???

A LIEN is not a transference of ownership. It is an ENCUMBRANCE on the TITLE of the PROPERTY granted by the OWNER of the PROPERTY to the LIEN HOLDER. It is essentially a "bond" or "promise" by the owner to the lien holder to fulfill a contract. Successful completion of that contract is why the title to the property is being held by the lien holder. Once the contract has been fulfilled, the lien holder in turn releases his lien. The owner cannot sell or otherwise transfer their interest in the property (ownership) without the lien holder concurring by granting either a release of the lien (essentially dismissing it) or by taking out a NEW lien on the NEW title with the new owner, but the Lien Holder has the right of refusal. His LIEN must FIRST be satisfied before title transfership can be effected. This is very common in real estate titles and is the main reason for "title insurance", where someone has researched the title and warrants that it is free from liens and other encumbrances. (This is all very general and I'm sure there will be some who will pull out their semantic magnifying glass to try to "Yes, BUT..." the topic, but it's not relevant to the discussion.)

So far, Zed Head has summarized what you need to do best, except I'd first get the Lien dismissed THEN approach the owner by title to release his interest in the car. (There's nothing wrong with doing them the other way around, except that it gets confusing if the lien holder still holds a grudge against the owner of record and the fact that the DMV will not accept the ownership change before the lien release.)

Bottom line, get the Lien released, then get the owner of record to release the title to you (typically by signing the Title AFTER the Lien has been RECORDED as RELEASED) by indicating the sale of the vehicle to YOU, then pay the arrears (trust me the DMV will have some, especially Californicate's DMV) and finally then you can get your car's title released AND LEGAL.

FWIW

E