Flashback to the mid-'60's

[26th-Z]

The clock is a good illustration, however within the electrical system, I think there are plenty more. As I recall our past discussions on this site, the fog lights, parking lights, and door lights have electrical leads in all wiring harnesses across all markets. Those features were not available in the North American market yet they were part of the original design / engineering. I can think of a couple of other engineering features common to every chassis to accomodate features not sent to North America. My point being that the S30 was thoroughly engineered, probably in a far more sophisticated manner than we realize. I hold this as strong evidence of what Nissan intentions were with the new sports car rather than the accepted thought that the 240Z was built for American shores. I also hold the sophisticated level of engineering as an example of how cutting edge the S30 was for its period. Even in the dumbed down version exported to North America!

[tlorber]

Yeah, but what about a 5 speed? (just tryin' to wizz the English bloke off) Seriously though, think about all the B.S. that later came on the car for emissions. Perhaps with an overdrive, mileage would have been high enough to skate out of some of that garbage.

How about a Mr. Fusion?

[doradox]

In the case of the HLS30-U, first it seemed that it would not have a clock, but then - in practice - it did. That must have been a business decision of some sort. That decision seems to have been made after the engineering, but the engineering would not have taken place without concept, planning and strategy coming first.

Exactly my point. Engineering involved before the decision was made to offer the clock at all. Or am I misunderstanding the whole

"seemed that it would not have a clock, but then - in practice - it did" part.

[doradox]

I also hold the sophisticated level of engineering as an example of how cutting edge the S30 was for its period. Even in the dumbed down version exported to North America!

Instead of dumbed down I would suggest highly engineered for the intended market. Is it so hard to imagine that it was a challenge to so successfully meet the US market requirements? That a US market version might have been more difficult to engineer?

[HS30-H]

Exactly my point. Engineering involved before the decision was made to offer the clock at all. Or am I misunderstanding the whole

"seemed that it would not have a clock, but then - in practice - it did" part.

So you honestly think that an engineer specified ( and, er, engineered it... ) before the policy to include a clock had been made?

What's that, some kind of Immaculate Conception?

I understand - and support - your championing of engineers and engineering, but even engineers have to accept that - in the case of the S30-series Z - they were working to a brief, a concept, a project dreamed up in the first instance by the white collared guys and then worked up into something bigger. The idea always has to come first. Of course the planners, designers and stylists need to have a solid grounding in engineering ( otherwise they'd design things that either could not be made, or would not work ) and there can be some crossover in roles, but when all is said and done the engineers don't say "I know, let's stick a clock here...." do they?

[HS30-H]

Instead of dumbed down I would suggest highly engineered for the intended market. Is it so hard to imagine that it was a challenge to so successfully meet the US market requirements? That a US market version might have been more difficult to engineer?

OK, I understand that "dumbed down" might raise your hackles, but think of it as a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction to all that "An American Car, Made In Japan" and "Made For The USA" flannel that gets plenty of airtime. Just look past it.

I'm not sure how, or why a "US market" ( ahem, North American market...... ) version might have been "more difficult to engineer" ( than what? ), so I'm all ears....

[Jetaway]

How about a flashback to 1971?

A review of the Datsun 240Z by a British automobile magazine. I found the statements on power output, the intended market, their performance comparisons and driving impressions quite interesting.

And that the year before Datsun sold, hold your heart, 3000 cars in England.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsHistory/Datsun-240Z-2.4/204152/

Chris

[doradox]

So you honestly think that an engineer specified ( and, er, engineered it... ) before the policy to include a clock had been made?

What's that, some kind of Immaculate Conception?

I understand - and support - your championing of engineers and engineering, but even engineers have to accept that - in the case of the S30-series Z - they were working to a brief, a concept, a project dreamed up in the first instance by the white collared guys and then worked up into something bigger. The idea always has to come first. Of course the planners, designers and stylists need to have a solid grounding in engineering ( otherwise they'd design things that either could not be made, or would not work ) and there can be some crossover in roles, but when all is said and done the engineers don't say "I know, let's stick a clock here...." do they?

Working to a brief or a concept is usually early in a project where there is a time spent looking at what is feasible and refining the product requirements. That's not the time that all options are defined. Many concepts have gone by the wayside long before any business decision is made to actually sell them. Someone says "hey how about putting in xyz feature and engineering says it can be done at this cost? Or one asks "if we wanted to achieve this end what products do we already have designed that could meet these requirements and if they can't how much effort will it take to modify them to do so"? That information is used to make the business decision. My point is engineering functions and business functions are not mutually exclusive. They are part of a whole that is used to conceive, create, market, and sell products. Where I work engineering is involved throughout the entire process as it is at virtually all successful businesses that design and manufacture products. Yes, the ultimate decision was likely not in engineering's hands but it is likely to have had some hand in the process leading up to that decision.

[Jetaway]

Oh, of course 1971 was the year currency markets were set free, or cut loose from reality, take your choice. Using 1 pound = $2.50, as a reasonable average for the year, buying an English Z cost $5,720.

Chris

[doradox]

OK, I understand that "dumbed down" might raise your hackles, but think of it as a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction to all that "An American Car, Made In Japan" and "Made For The USA" flannel that gets plenty of airtime. Just look past it.

I'm not sure how, or why a "US market" ( ahem, North American market...... ) version might have been "more difficult to engineer" ( than what? ), so I'm all ears....

A specific set of requirements and cost targets for a particular market. Why would it have been easier? If we don't know the specifics of the design requirements for the US, or if you prefer North American, version then how can we assume it was easier to meet them. Especially if it was already designed with a different set of requirements. An automobile is a very complex system and even a small change to one part can have a large influence on many others. Simply changing a spring rate without considering the overall effect can lead to unintended consequences.

[HS30-H]

How about a flashback to 1971?

A review of the Datsun 240Z by a British automobile magazine. I found the statements on power output, the intended market, their performance comparisons and driving impressions quite interesting.

Did you? Why?

And that the year before Datsun sold, hold your heart, 3000 cars in England.

And.....?

I think my heart is still beating, and nobody is going to hold the front page. Was it a surprise for you then?

[HS30-H]

A specific set of requirements and cost targets for a particular market. Why would it have been easier? If we don't know the specifics of the design requirements for the US, or if you prefer North American, version then how can we assume it was easier to meet them. Especially if it was already designed with a different set of requirements. An automobile is a very complex system and even a small change to one part can have a large influence on many others. Simply changing a spring rate without considering the overall effect can lead to unintended consequences.

The thing is, the real story is that the S30-series Z was conceived, styled, designed and yes, engineered to cater for all the perceived markets that it would be sold in, and for all of the variants and sub-variants that were coming off the production line. There's design concession and engineering concession in all of them. There are details, even things as small as drilled holes, that are present on your car simply because they were necessary on my car, and vice versa. That's my primary objection to all this "An American Car..." yak. The cars themselves contradict that.

Hence I don't see why you would ask if a "US market version" might be "more difficult to engineer". They were all designed and engineered together.