Z cars at the Concours

[motorman7]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss Z-cars at Concours events. I know that individual Concours events have been mentioned here on classiczcars.com, but I was hoping to set up a thread that might encompass all of them so that the subject is not so scattered. The goal is to have a Concours thread where people could offer tips, voice their thoughts and opinions, promote local Concours events, and of course show some awesome pictures.

First off, entering your Z car in a Concours show is really a mixed bag for us Z owners. I remember excitedly talking with bobc about this subject the first time I was accepted into a Concours show. With sage advice, he told me not to get too excited about it. He told me, “most Concours judges have no idea what to look for in a Japanese vehicle. If you tell the judges that the Z cars came from Japan with blacked out engine bays and V-8s, they would believe you”. Of course I dismissed this comment. Lo and behold, at my second Concours show, the winning Z car entry had blacked out engine bay, a lot of chromed engine parts, and was not even painted a standard Z car color. Oh well, I was warned:ermm:. I still enter the Concours events but try not to get my hopes up too high.

The other side of this coin is that Concours events can be quite a wonderful event for the Z owner. At one local Concours event, I was one of the few individuals personally interviewed at the event (broadcast throughout the show on the golf course), I received a car identification placard (brushed aluminum) that is nicer than just about any trophy I have received, and the people that I met and spoke with were great. Not to mention an exceptional goody bag, first class photos and web PR, parking on the fairway with an ocean view, and car positioned near the show entrance so that virtually everyone in attendance would walk by and see the car. I thought I had died and gone to car show heaven:bunny:. Doubt I will ever be in a better show than that.

Along with the great shows and bad shows, there is one issue that us Z-car owners continue face with car events. This issue seems to be….…should I say it…..discrimination. Take a look at the judged categories for most major Car shows. Of course you have a wide array of US car categories; Ford, Chevy, muscle cars, etc. There is typically a European car category or specifically German and Italian, or Jaguar, Porsche and Ferrari . But do you find Asian or Japanese car categories? Rarely. It’s almost as if Nissan and Toyota don’t exist. I find that very odd, and they have been selling cars for quite some time. Anyway, not sure if we will ever get a clear answer as to why Asian cars are not in the mix, but definitely feeling a little discrimination. Along this line, I will be displaying my Z in the upcoming La Jolla Concours. The only category that my car fit in was the “Preservation” category. Oh well, whatever it takes.

Anyway, just thought I’d set this up and see where it goes.

Rich

[Montezuma]

Great start Rich, I look forward to following this thread and seeing what other have to say, I am sure Carl will have some good feedback, since he did Amelia Island with his BRE car.

[xs10shl]

Many, many potential topics of discussion here, some of which I have a little first hand experience with.

I've attended the Pebble Beach Concours for the last 12 years in a row now, and I regularly either attend or participate in 4-5 Concours events annually. My first observation is quite simply that winners of big shows, and the overall feel of the event, is almost solely determined by the organizers. At Pebble Beach, which by many is considered the premier concours event globally, no post-war car has won Best of Show since the event was organized into it's modern form decades ago, which is certainly so statistically improbable, that it must be due to a natural bias. Most cars are over-restored to standards simply unachievable when the car was new, and this is expected and encouraged. As the organizers point out, it is a Concours d'Elegance- a beauty show. Point being - if a show is organized by a bunch of 70-year old Italians or the like, you can bet there will be little interest in anything other than what they knew and grew up with, which would include zero Japanese cars. Perhaps it is prejudice, but it's also partly a fact of human nature that people covet the cars they lusted after when they were young.

With respect to the participation of Japanese cars in these types of events, I've also found this to be a mixed bag for several reasons:

1) Many Concours events have a large focus on pre-1975 - this is an issue when trying to assemble a class for Japanese cars, because there is not a large knowledge base about rare Japanese cars which pre-date this era, nor is there a really large assortment of cars to choose from when compared to cars form other global regions.

2) There is a predetermination that Japanese cars are all cheap econo-boxes. Certainly some were, however, I think that over time this will be sorted out, as people who grew up with Japanese cars come of the age where they have real disposable income to buy and restore them. Perhaps in 10-15 years we will start to see a shift in how many concours are run to accommodate this.

3) Many enthusiasts of Japanese cars themselves don't seem to put as high a "price" on originality, which is a staple of a typical concours. Most major concours I've attended place the highest point-value on cars which are properly restored to original specifications. There is frequently a great deal of value placed on a highly and/or tastefully modded car by Japanese car fans. This is not a criticism, just an observation.

4) Some of the rarest and most desirable Japanese cars are simply unknown to car enthusiasts, or unattainable, or both.

Plenty more to discuss, these are just some broad brush strokes.

Edited March 21, 2012 by xs10shl

[motorman7]

I do get the impression that the major shows are starting to give the Japanese cars a bit more recognition. Last year the Palos Verdes Concours had a Japanese car category which I thought was quite significant. It was definitely out of their norm, but nice to see. Espirit placed well in that show.

Even with the upcoming La Jolla Concours, I was not planning on entering until I spoke with Les Cannady at Classic Datsun Motorsports. He mentioned to me that someone from the show had talked to him about entering some of his cars. That was definitely a pitch for the Datsun brand, so I went ahead and applied – even though there wasn’t a Japanese category.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the coming years. Hopefully, by the time the Z approaches its 50th birthday, Japanese car categories will be common place at the higher end shows. Time will tell.

[cygnusx1]

Japanese cars have had an identity crisis. Think about it. The majority of the success of Japanese cars comes from sales of the cars in adopted markets. They are at best, seen as the successful stepchildren in the American market. They are not first borns here in Concours country. Then there is the prejudice against foreign cars, which we can't deny, still exists in many places. We can pretend it doesn't exist, but unfortunately, it still does. Eventually, new generations, IMHO, will overlook the country-flags of automobiles, and judge without prejudice. However, it's a race against the dying hobby of cars.

[Oiluj]

1) I'll support a few things said above. In two Japanese events I've attended, the stock or nearly stock cars hardly got a second glance. The Highly modified cars with engine swaps got all the glory. Not to unexpected really...

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2) In local "all marque" shows, the humble Nippon cars don't win big honors, but ARE beginiing to see more recognition. Let's face it, judges looking at "best foreign car" will almost always be charmed by a sweet XKE or Healy as opposed to a classic Z. Z's are still too "familiar"... If I were judging, I'd probably do the same thing, especially if there was a pristine XK120 on the field...

That said, my little Z did win a "sponsor favorite" award last year at a local show and got lots of positive attention.

[Zulaytr]

I have had the opportunity to show my 240Z in seven concours events in the past few years from California to Florida and I can share some very good experiences if needed. I can attest that each event is different regarding how they select vehicles to participate, class assignments and how they judge them. I have definitely seen a change in interest in Japanese cars and the 240Z so I would encourage anyone who has a car that will qualify and is interested in showing at one they should pursue it.

Regarding entering an event, it is not unusual to have someone from another concours cruise the car shows in the area and solicit and hand select vehicles to fill their classes. This concours may or may not have a specific Japanese class but that should not be a deterent. One of the rewards is being invited and parking with other very nice cars. I can guarantee you that the Z will get alot of attention so take that in. One key about increasing the interest in the Z is the availability of stock Z's. We all want to personalize our Z's, after all that is probably one reason why we got interested in the Z to start with but with that in mind as you look around at Z specific shows, the availability of a stock, the way it came off the boat, is more and more difficult today so that limits the cars exposure.

Regarding judging, I have been required to start the car and show that everything is functional and I have had judges that knew little or nothing about a Z to ones that had not only researched the Z but also the car itself to see what other awards and shows it has participated in. Do not be offended it they only give you the once over, like Rich commented, just being there is a good thing.

Here is a list of the concours events and the various classes that I have participated in:

Muckenthaler Concours (CA) Japanese Classic

Huntington Beach Concours (CA) Japanese Classic

Palo Alto Concours (CA) Sports Cars under $5K

Winter Park Concours (FL) Special Interest

Ault Park Concours (OH) Classic Asian

Louisville Concours (KY) Sports Cars

Keeneland Concours (KY) Collector Foreign

I would encourage everyone to take advantage of participating and any and all concours that will accept our cars. It will pay dividends to the Z hobby in the future.

[Zulaytr]

P.S.

One of my most satifying moments at Concours was just after the judges came by and place the Best of Class award on my car, the owner of the European car parked nexted to me was overheard telling their friend "I do not see what the judges saw in THAT car, after all it is Japanese"!!

After that comment the crystal vase award really did not matter as I knew the Z was now an accepted competitor by the judges.

[xs10shl]

Oiluj, congratulations on your recognition. As you say, many Z enthusiasts would prefer to see modified cars, and get more excited about those types of cars, whereas people who prefer XKEs would rarely (if ever) consider an engine swap. Customs will almost always be relegated into side-show status in a typical Concours, regardless of country of origin. Sometimes, a custom even makes enthusiasts angry - in the Ferrari world, replicas and cars with any type of custom modification are typically publicly ridiculed and derided. Owners of Ferraris that use the wrong sort of hose clamps will be constantly reminded by overeager enthusiasts of this inaccuracy and deficiency throughout the day.

Good thing is that many Japanese-only concours have embraced a "dual-track" system, where a "stock" and "modified" class exists for each peer grouping. I'm a big proponent of this myself, as it allows for more participation.

[black gold man]

There is always Concours d’LeMons

1969 Datsun 1600 Roadster

This shiny little racer at first seemed to fit the LeMons theme on ironic grounds (Gulf livery on a 1.6-liter?), but then a peek inside revealed the eccentricity that makes it a natural here: airbrushed murals of the car in unlikely backdrops (like next to a Dutch windmill!) painted on the inside door panels. Nice.

http://car-buying-advice.org/drive/2011-concours-dlemons-the-antidote-to-the-overly-fabulous/

[bobc]

Hey Rich, I'm sorry if you took what I said as discouragement. Didn't mean it that way. I was just sharing my prior experiences. I was at the Muck one year and one of the judges walked up and said she grew up in Detroit and remembered how much she hated Japanese cars when she was young. That was her greeting to me! Along with my 1970, I had a Vintage Z at the time that came in third!!! They judged on the amount of work the owner did on his car versus the car's originality or finish.

I believe it's very important to get these cars out to shows if they are ever going to be accepted and increase in value. Fred Jordan worked long and hard to get Japanese cars into shows like the Huntington Beach Concours and displayed at the San Diego Auto Museum. It's also important to restore them to original condition. Z's are great because they are easy to personalize, but as they get fewer and fewer, these customizations hurt the overall value. Ok, that's just my opinion.

BTW, Zulaytr is being humble. Zulaytr is Bob Speights and he has one of the nicest Z's in the country. It's not over restored (like another car I know in the area) and it is very straight and original. I used to lose to him at shows and it was an honor to do so. It just made me want to make my car better. BTW, I have to share the story that the Z in his avatar was used in several ads including Sports Illustrated. It's his car, but the hubcaps were photoshopped on in the ad. Still have the magazine you gave me Bob, much appreciated!

When the Interstate driver picked up my Z today, he was pretty surprised. He said he hadn't hauled one before and doesn't see them at the auctions. That means we're either keeping them or there are not that many left that are bringing in the dollars for the new owners to pay for premium shipping.

Not sure where the values are going to go, but keeping the cars at the shows, particularly at the vintage concours shows couldn't be a bad thing.

Edited March 22, 2012 by bobc

[HS30-H]

4) Some of the rarest and most desirable Japanese cars are simply unknown to car enthusiasts, or unattainable, or both.

This is a very good point. 'Concours' competition is not really my bag ( although I enjoy the show ) but I've displayed some of my cars in various shows over the years and have often found that people who would otherwise be called 'experts' in the automotive field - including some very respected journalists - haven't got the faintest clue when it comes to most old Japanese cars. And when it comes to the Japanese cars that many Japanese enthusiasts would rank towards the top of the pile, the non-Japanese often have never even heard of them.

I showed my 1971 KPGC10 Skyline GT-R at the Goodwood Revival Meeting ( on Nissan's stand ) for two years running, and it was a fascinating experience. I think you could safely say that the Goodwood Revival can be ranked as one of the best events in the old car world, and it is attended by many of the world's experts and arch enthusiasts. And yet very very few of the people looking at the car had any idea what it was they were looking at. There were - of course - a very small minority who knew what it was and were most enthusiastic about it, but many of those people also said that they'd never actually seen one in the metal before. Most of their experience of the KPGC10 had been from the internet, and/or from magazines. That's understandable when you consider that there are so few of them outside Japan.

It was interesting to converse with some of the people who had never even heard of the KPGC10 before. Many of them had no idea that Nissan's 'GT-R' emblem dates back to 1969, and had a rich racing heritage and a comparatively blue bloodline. Some of them dismissed it out of hand, and some of them insisted ( as is so often the case with old Japanese cars ) in trying to find any design detail or engineering that they could point to as a "copy" of something else. It was almost as though they wanted to explain it away, and therefore not have to deal with it. For some car enthusiasts, to start looking into the old Japanese car world is to take a peep into the abyss. The more you look into it, the more bottomless it starts to look. It's all a little frightening for them, and therefore it's better for them to keep a lid on it.

xs10shl, I don't know how any of your cars could be properly judged in a USA-based concours event? What concours judge is going to know more than you about a KPGC10, KPGC110 or PS30? Even if you entered your PS30 into an S30 series-only class at a Z specialist event, who is going to know enough about that specific model to pick out what's 'factory correct' and what isn't?

Japanese cars have had an identity crisis. Think about it. The majority of the success of Japanese cars comes from sales of the cars in adopted markets.

That may well be your impression, but I'd question what it is exactly that you class as "success"?

If we are talking about now-classic cars, it's more likely that sales in terms of overall volume were achieved in the Japanese market. Japan was always the biggest single market for Japanese cars during the period that applies. If you judge "success" in terms of styling, engineering and dynamic excellence, then it's arguable that the very best that Japan had to offer - the kind of car that many concours competitions are populated with - were either exported in very limited volume, or not exported at all. That's certainly the case with the cars that are most sought after these days, and those that are changing hands for the greatest amounts of money....

Edited March 22, 2012 by HS30-H