Z cars at the Concours

[cygnusx1]

Success, as in, acceptance, sales, racing, some domination of the national marque, in the country where the Concours event in question is hosted.

Edited March 22, 2012 by cygnusx1

[HS30-H]

That doesn't seem to square with "...The majority of the success of Japanese cars comes from sales of the cars in adopted markets."

I'm saying that the majority of the success of Japanese cars comes from sales of the cars in Japan, that the best of their design and engineering was sold in Japan, and that the majority of their racing success and racing heritage was in Japan.

For concours events outside Japan, that will likely hold back the Japanese car in question.

[cygnusx1]

How much of Japanese automobile revenue comes from their exports of Automobiles, versus their internal figures? I don't know. Also, how much did the Japanese classics, sold outside of Japan, kick start their automobile economy? How do you think this effects their place in the concours world and how does this affect the concours judges?

Edited March 22, 2012 by cygnusx1

[xs10shl]

xs10shl, I don't know how any of your cars could be properly judged in a USA-based concours event? What concours judge is going to know more than you about a KPGC10, KPGC110 or PS30? Even if you entered your PS30 into an S30 series-only class at a Z specialist event, who is going to know enough about that specific model to pick out what's 'factory correct' and what isn't?

Agreed- I myself am not a fan of judging any marque, as there are few "Judges" who know more than the local mechanic who has worked on them for 40 years. There is effectively no written history available in English about JDM cars, so there is no way to learn about them, other than to attempt to buy one. However, one thing that IS surprising is the number of 20 or 30-somethings that rush over to see the Hako whenever I show it. Perhaps it's a weird side effect from all those video games and movies. I'd venture to say there may be as many as 15 c10's on the west coast of the United States, mostly owned by people under 40.

Instead of concours competition, I focus on elevating Japanese car collecting as a whole, and help build awareness through education and exposure. A small article in Automobile Magazine (which I'm surprised no-one commented on, especially since the dreaded "G" word was used with respect to the Z, against my wishes), and a hopefully larger one coming up this July in another magazine. And of course, "display-only" entries at various concours events. I have a relatively easy time of it in California, where there is already a groundswell of interest in old J-tin.

To echo your comments about the the best designs being limited to the Japanese market, I almost always begin every presentation with "When it comes to engineering, the Japanese always seemed to keep the best stuff for themselves" . . . even though I'm starting to sway to the opinion that when it comes to s30s, it may actually have been the Portuguese!

Edited March 22, 2012 by xs10shl

[TomoHawk]

Instead of speculating on why you don't see the Japanese cars at concours events, why not just ask the event promoters or hosts WHY they choose not to include them? That would probably give you the best idea on how to go and make some change. I think the comments about available experts, documentation, etc. and such is probably correct tho.

[HS30-H]

How much of Japanese automobile revenue comes from their exports of Automobiles, versus their internal figures? I don't know.

Well, for the period I think is most relevant to 'concours' competition for Japanese cars outside Japan ( let's say something like the 1955 to 1975 period ) the revenue from domestic sales would far outweigh export sales.

Also, how much did the Japanese classics, sold outside of Japan, kick start their automobile economy? How do you think this effects their place in the concours world and how does this affect the concours judges?

I don't want to appear rude, but have you got any idea just how big Nissan's presence in the Japanese market was? It was domestic sales that gave them any "kick start", and domestic sales far outweighed export sales for the period we are talking about. It should not, can not be underestimated.

As for how that affects their concours judging outside Japan; I would say that if export markets never saw Japan's best and never realised their rightful position amongst their contemporaries, then they are never going to be judged fairly and equitably, let alone with any depth of knowledge.

[motorman7]

Hey Rich, I'm sorry if you took what I said as discouragement. Didn't mean it that way. I was just sharing my prior experiences. I was at the Muck one year and one of the judges walked up and said she grew up in Detroit and remembered how much she hated Japanese cars when she was young. That was her greeting to me! Along with my 1970, I had a Vintage Z at the time that came in third!!! They judged on the amount of work the owner did on his car versus the car's originality or finish.

Hi Bob,

No, I was not discouraged at all by your comments. Actually I was really glad you prepared me for what to expect. I just laughed and realized that you really knew what you were talking about. As some have mentioned here, each Concours is very different and judges are looking for different things. In hind sight, I just brought the wrong Z to that event. They would have loved the yellow one.

And honestly, the awards are not really a big deal, it’s the atmosphere, environment and conversations that are the best part. I have met famous and well known people at these events. And, it’s amazing how many of them have owned a Z at one time in their life. Always makes for good conversation and a great experience.

[26th-Z]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for sharing the experiences you have had with your beautiful car. I wanted to respond yesterday by saying that I can think of but a handful of "stockish" 240Zs that belong at any of the concours events mentioned. I would say the same for modified Zs - a handful. ZRush being a prime example.

Concours events are traditionally "fashion shows" meaning that originality is far less important than how the car looks. Winning cars evoke an emotional response of beauty far more than award winning nit-picking accuracy. I can never seem to over-emphasize that.

The Japanese classics, sold outside of Japan, had little (if any) influence on "kick starting their automobile economy". Nissan in particular, looked at the export market to increase business. The Japanese automobile economy was roaring along just fine. Evidenced by how much the Japanese imports took away from domestic American car sales!

[Carl Beck]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss Z-cars at Concours events.

Hi Rich:

Boy - there are so many branches to this discussion!!

Strictly from my own experience - which has been limited:

The reason you don't see Z Cars at most of these larger or more exclusive Concours Events - is because there are not more people like BobC, BobS, Rich, Alan and xs10shl who are both willing and able to take #1 / #2 Concours Quality Z's to the events. I don't belive it is because the event organizers don't want them or won't accept them.

Most of these high end Concours Events are ran to raise funds for different worthy Charities. The organizers usually want to attract the largest possible crowds and the widest possible sponsorship. They do that by having the broadest range of interesting and beautiful cars on the field.

I believe that as more Collectors finish up their Concours Quality Z Cars - you'll see them at more of these events. It has already been happening for the past 5 or more years.

Also - as xs10shl I believe correctly pointed out - a lot depends on who the organizers are and what they are interested in. Over the years that group does change... and we will see more Z Car fans among them in the future. That could be hastened if more Z Car Guys would go volunteer at these events and become more involved in their planning etc.

For example; One person is a Judge at both Pebble Beach and Amelia Island - he is also a Vintage Z owner. One person that is a key organizer at Ault Park is on our 240Z Original Owners Register. The main mover and shaker at Amelia is a former SCCA competitor and has always had a real interest in the SCCA C & D Production, as well as the Cam/Am cars, from the late 60's and early 70's - where the DATSUN's were key competitors.

Because of the vast array of Classic Cars that show up at these events - it is simply impossible to have an "expert" there to judge every one of them on the basis of being pure stock or perfectly "original". Many of these cars represent 1 of only a handful that were produced or which still exist today. The only documentation, if any exists at all - is that complied by the guy that restored the car. So Judging at most of these events is nothing like Judging a Stock Class at a Marque Only event. Again as xs10shl pointed out - it's a beauty contest. {it is also many times a buddy contest}. For that reason - I usually enter my Z "for display" and enjoy the day.

I also agree completely with everyone - you take your Z to these events to enjoy the company of fellow car nuts. Meet lots of nice people, get to see lots of simply splendid automobiles and hope that more people will think of the Z Cars in terms of Classic's - a thing of timeless beauty.

One downside - is that many of these Events can be personally expensive to support - but you have to think of it as your contribution to the Charity involved.

Come on you guys - how about some pictures at the events!

FWIW,

Carl B.

[LeonV]

xs10shl, I don't know how any of your cars could be properly judged in a USA-based concours event? What concours judge is going to know more than you about a KPGC10, KPGC110 or PS30? Even if you entered your PS30 into an S30 series-only class at a Z specialist event, who is going to know enough about that specific model to pick out what's 'factory correct' and what isn't?

That electronic distributor module sure isn't, on the PS30! And neither is the exhaust! However, the only reason I know that is from the mechanic (Matt?) telling me, which somewhat reinforces Alan's point (not like I'm a judge or an expert though). Looking into an engine bay of a 432 (or C10/C110 GTR) is immeasurably fascinating, especially for a Z owner. However, some random judge (let alone an "enthusiast") at some car show will almost surely have no clue what they're looking at, especially on a Japanese car that was never sold in the US. They'd probably say, "looks nice" and move on. Get them next to a Pontiac GTO, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, etc. and they'll drool and remark all day long, and it's because that's what they know. Alan brings up a good point, the vast majority of people in the US just don't know these cars very well, hell most probably don't know they exist!

Agreed- I myself am not a fan of judging any marque, as there are few "Judges" who know more than the local mechanic who has worked on them for 40 years. There is effectively no written history available in English about JDM cars, so there is no way to learn about them, other than to attempt to buy one. However, one thing that IS surprising is the number of 20 or 30-somethings that rush over to see the Hako whenever I show it. Perhaps it's a weird side effect from all those video games and movies. I'd venture to say there may be as many as 15 c10's on the west coast of the United States, mostly owned by people under 40.

Instead of concours competition, I focus on elevating Japanese car collecting as a whole, and help build awareness through education and exposure. A small article in Automobile Magazine (which I'm surprised no-one commented on, especially since the dreaded "G" word was used with respect to the Z, against my wishes), and a hopefully larger one coming up this July in another magazine. And of course, "display-only" entries at various concours events. I have a relatively easy time of it in California, where there is already a groundswell of interest in old J-tin.

To echo your comments about the the best designs being limited to the Japanese market, I almost always begin every presentation with "When it comes to engineering, the Japanese always seemed to keep the best stuff for themselves" . . . even though I'm starting to sway to the opinion that when it comes to s30s, it may actually have been the Portuguese!

Your garage is a godsend! I'd love to own a C10 someday, but for now I am very happy to be able to enjoy them in the flesh! I don't know what it is about classic Japanese cars that attracts certain people, but for me the attraction comes from not only great design and engineering, but also it being a relatively unexplored realm of automotive goodness. As was mentioned earlier, many Japanese cars had a lot of succcess in domestic markets and domestic racing but they were either not brought over to the US or did not have big racing/sales success in the US (GTRs, Bellets, 2000GT, Original Honda S-series, etc., this list can get very long). I feel like there is modesty and dignity in these classic Japanese cars, as strange as that sounds, because they have a very rich heritage but they do not "brag" about it. Only those in the know appreciate them for what they are. While it seems as though we want to change that, I find it captivating. There's always something new or interesting to learn about the old Japanese car sitting in the back (or front!) of the garage.

Those are my 2 cents. Interesting thread!

Edited March 22, 2012 by LeonV

[motorman7]

Come on you guys - how about some pictures at the events!

Carl B.

I love the pictures. This is a re-post, but this is my Z at the 2011 Dana Point Concours. Entered in the Post WWII-pre 1972, sports cars under 3 liters class.

[xs10shl]

That electronic distributor module sure isn't, on the PS30! And neither is the exhaust! However, the only reason I know that is from the mechanic (Matt?) telling me

I'll have a little chat with Matt and teach him the phrase, "Yes, it's absolutely bone stock" for the next show. Doubt anyone would notice, .

[HIJACK]

Just as a side story, the Japanese aftermarket ignition module recently crapped out on us days before a photoshoot, so I spent the weekend cursing, yanking parts off, and trying to retrofit an MSD box to it. All's well that ends well.

[/HIJACK]

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