Is POR-15 worth it?

[peterc]

Just thought I'd throw this out for discussion. We all know that rust is the overriding and everpresent threat to all z's. From what I've read the general concensus of the people doing restorations is that you should remove all undercoatings, tarmats etc; cut out any seriously rusted metal and weld in new panels (which I agree with); and then apply the POR-15 treatment to as much of the car as you can afford.

It's the last step that I'm having trouble with. As I understand it, POR-15 is a multi-step process (sort of like AA for cars ), and is rather expensive, particularly when dealing with exchange rates.

Ignoring the cost issues (difficult for those of Scottish background ), does POR-15 offer an better protection than other options such as rust paints (Tremclad, etc), or tar-based undercoatings.

The problem with factory applied, and after-market, undercoatings and tarmats is that they can trap moisture which leads to rust. Who hasn't felt their heart drop when peeling off intact undercoating only to discover mushy, rusty metal underneath?

But would POR-15 be any different? Sooner or later moisture will find its way to the metal under the POR-15 coating, either from a rock chip, or running over a curb, or a stress crack or whatever. Once this happens, won't the POR-15 trap the moisture just like its cheaper counterparts?

Something to remember is that we're dealing with 20-30 year old cars, most of which have been winter-driven or exposed to salt-air, with little or no attention ever having been paid to preservation (that is, until we got our hands on them ).

I have yet to hear anyone say that after restoration they intend to drive their Z in the winter or neglect them as previous owners have.

So, I guess what I'm wondering is, if the cars survived 20-30 years under less than optimal care and conditions with only the factory undercoatings, shouldn't they last equally as long using similar products since they won't be subjected to the same misuse and abuse?

And can you reasonably expect POR-15 or similar products to last any longer? Has anyone had any long term experience (10+ years) with POR-15?

Comments?

[Bambikiller240]

I think it is worth it. Perhaps reading up on the material at the link below will answer some of your questions. Proper application is critical to successfull application of POR15

http://www.por15.com/index.html

IMHO, only an idiot would drive a car that they care about in the salt environment of a snowy winter. POR or no POR. I will drive mine in the rains tht we get in the No. California area (15 -35 inches per year)

another of my $.02 USD

Carl

[EScanlon]

If what you are looking for is some sort of guarantee that this will solve / fix / eliminate / prevent any and all present, future, possible, probable, accidental, incidental and intentional problems, you're not going to get it from anyone here, nor even from the manufacturer.

You could go the conventional way, sandblast the metal, use some sort of metal etch prep to provide some sort of phosphate coating to rust proof it, use epoxy primer, and apply a good coat of paint and you'd have the same guarantee as what you had originally. Actually better, since the original galvanizing and paint were very thin.

POR has been used by many reputable magazines in tests. They've put it to the test to see how it performs. Is it an absolute guarantee that NOTHING will ever happen again? No. There are far too many variables as you pointed out. Is it the BEST protection (in their opinion) when applied properly? When compared to other products making the same claim, YES.

Is it worth the expense? That's all up to you. I used it, many others have also. Am I "guaranteed" no further problems? No. But then again, I'm reasonably confident that I've applied something that will be a serious deterrent to further problems. I live in the Pacific NorthWest so I'm not readily exposed to salt on the roads, and I wouldn't drive it on the roads where such would be present. But I have driven it in the rain, will drive it in the rain, and will keep an eye on things.

2¢

[peterc]

Good input guys. I'm not trying to bad-mouth any particular product, or promote one rustproofing method over another, just curious as to other's opinion.

Rust is THE big bug-a-boo of Z's and we all have better things to do (like DRVING:) ) than sit under a Z cutting out rusty metal. I was just wondering if other methods/products, e.g. undercoating, rockerguard, tarmats etc., might offer similar protection with less effort and/or cost.

Carl,

I have looked at POR's website, and I agree with you, "proper application is critical". However, from what I've read on this site (Classic Zcar), not all people that use POR-15 religously folllow all the required steps. So.......?

p.s. loved your postscript...."another of my $.02 USD" (the USD was a nice touch ). Converting form USD to Canadian $ hurts....think dog years.

EScanlon,

If my post was misleading, I apologize. I don't expect any product to 'guarantee' protection from rust (IF ONLY:) ). I'm just curious if its possible to go overboard trying to stop rust. As I mentioned, people that buy Zs today are enthusiasts and, after spending way too much time restoring their toys (just ask your wife ), are highly unlikely subject them to the weather conditions that caused the rust in the first place.

So do we really have to go to extremes (time/money wise) to 'protect' them from conditions that they will never be exposed to?

Peter

p.s. Don't mind me. I've got 2 Z's up on blocks...so I can't drive them...it's winter...and -30...so I can't even work on them .

It's even too cold to sit in the garage and make 'vroom-vroom' noises .

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by peterc

Carl,

I have looked at POR's website, and I agree with you, "proper application is critical". However, from what I've read on this site (Classic Zcar), not all people that use POR-15 religously folllow all the required steps. So.......?

In the words of Forrest Gump, "Stupid is, as Stupid Does!" When I'm spending the bucks and doing the work to prevent my "Bambikiller" from disappearing before my eyes (they WILL rust in N. CA even without salt!) I can assure you, I DO follow the instructions exactly and the distributors have been very helpful in providing info and answering many questions from me to ensure that I do it right.

Originally posted by peterc

p.s. loved your postscript...."another of my $.02 USD" (the USD was a nice touch ). Converting form USD to Canadian $ hurts....think dog years.

I was hoping you'd get a chuckle out of that one. I felt that I needed to lighten up a bit after my "idiot" statement to let you know I wasn't insinuating anything towards you directly. Since I've lived in CA all of my life, I cannot imagine having a car that I love and having to stash it away for half of the year. VROOM, VROOM noises would only make it worse for me

Originally posted by peterc

So do we really have to go to extremes (time/money wise) to 'protect' them from conditions that they will never be exposed to?

Depends on how long you want your car to last. Rust will get it sooner or later, without protection. They simply were not designed to last as long as they already have. My belief is that a car "properly treated" with POR15 would be much more desirable than a similar car NOT treated with it. (to me, anyway)

If I sound like I'm promoting POR15, it's only because the vast majority of the people I've spoken with in the Z and Hot Rod communties out here in CA swear by it. I really cannot remember hearing anything negative about the product. We have one of the biggest Hot Rod club gatherings in the USA in my town each August (The "Good Guys" West Coast Nationals) and the POR15 distributor for the West Coast was there last year and was busy as a Hooker in San Diego, CA USA on Super Bowl Sunday!

Have a Good Weekend!

Carl

[EScanlon]

Peter:

No apology needed. In fact, if I came off too strong it was probably due to another posting on another site where someone had asked if Wick Humble's process of removing and restoring a fender was "overkill" and why couldn't he just remove and replace and not worry about the sealing, gasketing and other "nonsense" as he phrased it.

I've been doing Body Work for about 20 years. At first as a job, then after a couple years and enlisting in the Air Force, as a hobby. I've restored close to two dozen vehicles, pretty much by myself just for the kicks and grins of seeing it go down the road. My wife would like to shoot me for not having made as much money on those projects as she would have liked, (some for no money). As a result, I've seen many different vehicles in all stages of deterioration, and owners with unbelievable demands coupled with incredibly meager budgets or the tightest wallets I've seen.

I've heard the "What Guarantee?" question more often than I would like, and I've never been able to provide a definite for sure this will work type of answer. For all the products I've used, POR provides a coating which ~promises~ to provide the kind of coating I wish I had when I did some of my first restoration jobs.

I restored a 76 Mercury Capri II that had tons of cancerous rust. I replaced metal all over the place, cut out all the bad cancer, replaced fenders, rocker panels, used brazing and welding almost exclusively, body filler was kept to a minimum, fibreglass was used only in a few spots. I used Metal Prep washes to coat, Epoxy Primer througout, Primer Sealer, and several coats of paint as well as clear coat. When I was finished, I had lots of compliments, and the car stayed nice for many years. Unfortunately, I drove the car in Michigan, as a daily driver. After 6 years, the cancer was returning and at that time I couldn't afford to rework the car. Was there something wrong with what I did? Hard to say. Did I miss something? Possibly.

The only sure thing, is that driving a car in winter when they salt the roads is a surefire guarantee that you will once again get rust.

POR has been used by a lot of folks, magazines have tested it. Car clubs praise it. I figure that with that many people praising it it should be better than what I have done in the past.

I'll finish off by saying this.

In using the POR on my Z, I coated all the areas that I found that needed attention. In doing so, I painted over and into many of the captured nuts on the frame. When I went to reassemble the car, I discovered that the old method of pushing down harder on the screw / bolt in order to get it to engage the threads on the nut, simply would not work. I stripped a couple screws.

Frustrated, I got out my tap and die set. I ended up chasing the threads on all the nuts that had been painted. However, it felt more like I was cutting NEW thread than chasing old. That's some HARD paint! I personally feel that any paint this hard, has got to be giving the kind of "bullet proof" protection that I want on the critical areas of the car.

2¢

[1GENZED]

Hey

Do you guys know what the minimum allowable operating temp

is for applying por15.

The ambiant temp in my garage is about 5 degrees celsius.

[EScanlon]

So about 41° F.

The product label and information sheet says that the work surfaces should be at 65°F (18.3° C) at least 24 hours PRIOR to application and for the next 72 hours.

Since the POR sets by using ambient humidity, it is a CHEMICAL reaction. As such temperature would definitely affect it. Whether it would set or not, I don't know, that would be a good question to pose at www.por.com

Hope this helps.

Enrique Scanlon

[peterc]

Thanks for the input guys. I was hoping to hear from people who had some real-time experience with POR as opposed to 'testimonials' and magazine articles. I'm always suspicious when there are loads of ads for products in magazines which just 'happen' to be testing that particular product.

Enrique, I've done a couple of restorations, but 2 dozen? I guess it must be easier when you're on an Air Force salary (hehehe).

And I'll have to remember that tip, using POR to rethread stripped out nuts .

Carl, you're right of course. If you're going to use the product, might as well use it properly, although as I said, I have read here of people taking shortcuts with POR. Hope it works for them.

Cheers!

[EScanlon]

Peter

Yes it was, since my deal with the owners was they paid for all materials, shop rental costs at the MWR Auto Shop and I got a small fee (too ludicrous to mention). Most were simple repaints and detailing. You'd be surprised how many owners didn't know the basics about detailing interiors etc. or how to do simple body work.

But I left the Air Force in 90. Just prior to the Gulf War. Technically, I'm a Gulf War Vet since I served through the early preparations but my specialty wasn't considered a critical retain slot, so I was able to out-process. Since then the number of cars has seriously trickled down to only doing my own.

By the way, although the POR does get hard enough to require tapping, I don't know as I would trust it for more than just a few foot-pounds of torrque.

Cheers!