Updates to the ZCCA Car Show Judging Rules

[TomoHawk]

the judging rules seem to be adequately defined in the ZCCA Judging Manual for the cars, but there are no guidelines or protocols for the judges themselves. Something, like a Judge's section needs to be added to keep them in line. I can say that myself, because, over the years, at several shows utilizing the ZCCA rules, there were mistakes made by "judges" that were incorrect because they were basically just some guys pulled off the sidewalk at the last minute.

One problem/mistake was by a judge who incorrectly tried to operate the vehicle, and deducted points because he didn't get the result he expected. Another was a judge who was not respectful of the car and deducted points because the door was purposely locked. A third mistake was from a judge who made an invasive test on the car's mechanics.

By defining what things a judge may do, and how to present himself during a judging will eliminated most, if not all judging problems, and make the event a better experience for all involved.

For the first problem mentioned, the judge should have asked the owner to operate the control, and he would have found it working perfectly. the judge hadn't read the car's owner's manual and therefore didn't know how to operate that control.

For the second problem, the judge should have asked the owner's permission to enter the car, and he would have gotten it, provided he didn't actually get IN the car.

For the third problem, the judge should have just looked from the same distance that any spectator would have used, instead of going up close.

these three basic rules (no touching, ask permission, "5 foot rule") would have eliminated all the problems, and made the judging process fair and less time-consuming.

I think there might be occasions when you might need to get very picky, such as to break a tie-score, but for 99% of the time, it doesn't need to be that way.

It's also a little late to get this section added to the ZCCA Judging Manual for this year's convention, but it is timely enough for next year's and anything else in the future.

thxZ

[gnosez]

The devil is in the details so why not actually give very specific information pertaining to each of these three points.

Why, well for one, nothing gets operated in the course of a ZCCA judged show unless you're talking about a door, hatch, or hood.

Second, if you enter your car in ZCCA show then you have already given permission to enter your car and THAT includes getting in the car itself.

Third, there is no 5-ft rule and if one was enacted I would end my involvement as a senior judge. Spectators are not judges unless you're entered in the People's Choice section. Judges look for things spectators don't and look for perfection - cleanliness is next to winning.

Picky is what separates those who have spent hundreds of hours preparing their cars for a "judged" show. A ZCCA judged show at the annual convention is exactly the occasion to be very, very picky.

Being picky as a judge shows a level of respect for those who take the time to get things right.

[hls30.com]

I hate it when I work on an answer so long I get timed and logged out!

Tomohawk, in addition to what John said,

You have hit on one of the serious issues in ZCCA car shows-the lack of people actually wanting to give their time to train and judge. While there are formal rules in the ZCCA charter that clearly define the requirements of judges and the ZCCA relative to them, The shortage of those qualified and willing to judge leads to getting anyone willing to fill the shirt at the last moment. With the rules in the ZCCA articles effectively moot, the issue has been snowballing for years-at least as long as I have been a judge.

The time to recruit judges is not at an event, putting a check box on the registration form hasn't gotten the needed results as long as it has been done-even with some of us checking the box every time we attend a ZCCA judged show. The time to recruit and train judges is at local club meetings-if every judge would take the time to find and train at least one a year-this issue would not exist.

At the class I took from 26thZ and at every ZCCA Judges meeting I have ever been in, All judges are told to ask for the owners to open/articulate the judged movable parts of every judged car. If the owner opens the door, the assumption is that permission to enter the car has been given-to allow an operators view in judging the interior.

I have lost points for not having my gas door open-and not being there(as I was judging) to grant the permission to open it-judges get bit too-even when he told the judges in his cars class to accept parked ownership-treat her as if she's yours!

As to 5 foot rule-there is no way that a formal judging from any credible organization will take place with that restriction-if that is your expectation-enter only the Peoples choice and stay close to your car-to enforce the rule.

While there is not a judges handbook, there is a judges meeting, and it covers most of your concerns. Occasionally a new judge gets caught up in what is going on and forgets the guidelines-welcome to the real world of having more need for judges than qualified people volunteering to judge.

It never fails to amaze me that people with issues with judging rarely become judges...I became a judge for three reasons, the first was to find out what the rules actually are relative to what they were on paper and how they are interpreted in practice. The other two are not pertinent to this thread.

Edited August 30, 2012 by hls30.com

[TomoHawk]

The devil is in the details so why not actually give very specific information pertaining to each of these three points.

I wanted someone to ask for details, which shows interest.

The first item refers to the glove box light. The "Judge" opened the glove box door, didn't see any light (it was about 2pm in July) and I got penalized. the second item was that the door was purposely locked, because I wanted the judge to ask permission, and instead got penalized. The third item happened to a friend. The judge practically climbed into a wheel well to look for dirt, and found some.

Why, well for one, nothing gets operated in the course of a ZCCA judged show unless you're talking about a door, hatch, or hood.

Remember that these cars (S30s) are antiques and some are further towards coming apart than some, so it is only respectful that the owner is asked to poperate these things to prevent damage to the car, and the club's and the ZCCA's reputation, or worse...

if you enter your car in ZCCA show then you have already given permission to enter your car and THAT includes getting in the car itself.

My club hosted the 2008 convention, and there was no mention of this in the paperwork besides the usual disclaimer about damage in general.There is no such rule or precedent that I know of allowing anyone to touch or enter the vehicles. Please expand on this.

there is no 5-ft rule and if one was enacted I would end my involvement as a senior judge. Spectators are not judges unless you're entered in the People's Choice section. Judges look for things spectators don't and look for perfection - cleanliness is next to winning.

no, there is no explict 5 ft. rule, but there is no requirement for anyone to become invasive about finding things to deduct points. Judges are busy enough without having to crawl under or into vehicles.

Picky is what separates those who have spent hundreds of hours preparing their cars for a "judged" show. A ZCCA judged show at the annual convention is exactly the occasion to be very, very picky.

Being picky as a judge shows a level of respect for those who take the time to get things right.

That might be all well and good, but so are the owners, and remember that the cars (S30s) are considered antiques, so respect is in order.

Will

If you need that much time, I'd suggest using a text editor like Notepad to create your statement before you are ready to submit it.

Edited August 30, 2012 by TomoHawk

[hls30.com]

Tomohawk

The current rules and judging sheets are posted and available to everyone-and have been for a good bit more than a year-you and I have posted about them before...if you checked them you would have seen what would be examined, and know what has to be done to examine it-that fact should have given you a serious heads up as to the level of intrusion to expect upon entering your car in the ZCCA Judged show.

BTW there is not an operational check for lighting in the judging sheets-no points should have come off for it.

No where on this site does it say what the "time out" is. I have to push the boundaries every so often and re-establish where they are...even if purely by accident:stupid:.

Edited August 30, 2012 by hls30.com

[TomoHawk]

the ZCCA Judging Manual has nothing regarding a judge's protocol. It's basically just a set of instructions on what to look at, and what to deduct points on.

In addition, there are some very notable national organizations that do have protocols set for a judges behavior and judging requirements. The AACA for example, has a judges handbook that's over 100 printed pages ad it goes into detail about everything from authentic bodies to original engines to correct tires. And it also includes a section on a judge's behavior. The Studebaker Driver's Club is another and the Vintage Chevrolet Club of America is another. These are all more prestigious than the ZCCA...

Edited August 30, 2012 by TomoHawk

[hls30.com]

the ZCCA Judging Manual has nothing regarding a judges protocol. It's basically just a set of instructions on what to look at, and what to deduct points on.

As I said in my previous post: "While there is not a judges handbook, there is a judges meeting, and it covers most of your concerns. Occasionally a new judge gets caught up in what is going on and forgets the guidelines-welcome to the real world of having more need for judges than qualified people volunteering to judge." The Judging manual also says what cannot be deducted for...as I have pointed out before...

Other organizations that are larger and more mature than the ZCCA have somewhat intimidating Judging manuals-as a past judge in several of those, I can tell you that they are much more into proving judges training and continuing education than the ZCCA-because they have a stronger and larger pool of actually dedicated enthusiasts to draw from.

Edited August 30, 2012 by hls30.com

[EScanlon]

Tomo, sorry but it sounds like you have a major case of Sour Grape-itis.

The judges at any car show don't have the time to have each car individually coddled by their owner showing them how you push on that button and smack the dash right in that spot and twist this knob and then VOILA the glove box light comes on. If the light did not come on, it may have been a sticky plunger switch, or an excess amount of room light making it hard to discern that it WAS on. In either case, it is up to you to try to minimize those possibilities, and yes, suffer the consequences if they do arise.

At many show by virtue of registering your car, you are asking for it to be judged. Then by leaving items open / unlocked you are allowing the judge to compare your car against the others in your class. Sometimes, with known problem items, it is necessary to delve deeper in order to discern a winner.

Judging is straight forward, is the door open?

Then the interior is open to be judged, with the possible accrual of any points to be earned from a good interior.

Conversely if the door is not open, the possible deduction of points for that.

The process rewards the owner who makes the interior judgeable over the individual who locks his car so the interior will NOT be judged.

Additionally, that owner can lose some points for non-op and wrong items in the interior.

Your 5 ft rule, would degrade the role of knowledgeable judges to the equal of any show spectator.

At that point, why not just have it judged by every other person walking by?

2¢

E

[TomoHawk]

That is why the owners are there, to politely remind the judges of certain things, such as "Let me open the door for you," or, "let me turn on the lights and toot the horn for you." It should be added to the ZCCA Judging Manual.

Edited August 30, 2012 by TomoHawk

[72 OJ]

I don't think that he has a case of ''sourgrapeitis''as mention above, but rather a tone of let me judge all Z related topics .....IMO

[TomoHawk]

You don't need to open a door to look into the interior of a vehicle. I have looked into hundreds and have seen it all just by sticking my head through the open window, in a respectful way. Having the window open is enough so you can put your head in there and see anything you'd like to see.

This is NOT an issue of sour grapes. The mistakes I've noticed only remind me that there definitely needs to be some guidelines for judges enumerated so both judge and owner will know what is expected and how far each can go. If anything else is needed, as polite "may I....?" will take care of things.

If you really have that many vehicles to go over, then a pairs of judges is in order.

Edited August 30, 2012 by TomoHawk

[gnosez]

Okay, there is nothing in the ZCCA rules about working lights or the correct number of clicks the e-brake should make, so if points were deducted that was wrong. If a show is held indoors most fire regs require that cars have the electrical system disengaged. That means no horn, lights, etc. I've judged 10 out of the last 12 conventions and at none of those did I ask to see or hear a light work or the sound of a horn.

As to showing respect, looking very closely at these Zs is what judging is all about. Don't want your Z inspected, enter it in People's Choice.

You don't need to open the doors to judge the interior???!!! WTF? So the rip in the bottom of the door panel that can't be seen until a door is open, or say the door sill is rusted or dirty. Sorry but that line of logic just jumped off the cliff.

Maybe we should forget your proposed 5-foot rule and lets just have owners submit photos or maybe a power point presentation instead.

Or better yet, get yourself an old Lincoln and enter it in a regional or national event where your vehicle will undergo 2 days of inspection where they look for cleanliness, originality and working components like lights. It makes a ZCCA show look shallow and quick.

If you and I are ever at a convention again, please ask me to judge your car and I'll walk you through the whole simple process while explaining everything that's happening and why.

Edited August 30, 2012 by gnosez