Hello all,

Can I ask for opinions on the following?

Are you happy with the positioning of the Emergency Brake on your early Z car?

In the UK, we have traditionally called this the "Handbrake" ( is that true for Australia / New Zealand too? ) and I know in Japan it has mainly been known as the "Side Brake".

Some owners will realise that the positioning of the Emergency Brake on the right side of the trans tunnel ( from the viewpoint of the driver sitting in the car ) was the same for both Right Hand Drive and Left Hand Drive versions. As far as I am aware, the only time that the positioning was changed to the OTHER side of the tunnel was in Factory-built "Works" competition cars ( specifically, in SOME of the Works rally cars that were Left Hand Drive - but not all of them ). I think this was only performed on a handful of cars after the Works drivers complained.

As the owner of more than one RHD early Z car, I have always felt that the position of the handle on the right hand side of the tunnel was perfect. When I drove an LHD early Z car for the first time, I was shocked to find how awkwardly positioned the Emergency Brake seemed.

I have in the past owned a fair few non-Z LHD cars ( American, French, Italian, German ) and I think I remember that the handbrakes were usually centrally-mounted or were otherwise easy to get to and use effectively and sportingly ( especially for the odd handbrake-assisted turn ). The early Z cars seem to be unusual in the way that they kept the same position on both LHD and RHD cars.

What do you think?

Alan T.

Originally posted by EScanlon

major, major snip

Case in point: The ignition key and the combination switches.

Would someone post the description of these items on a RHD car please?

Let the howling begin.

Ignition on the RH side and combination is the same.

Over to the BBC Home Service........

Alan T. wrote:

I think one of the biggest no-no's on a car is to have the indicator stalk on the same side of the steering wheel as the gearstick. It just makes you feel really busy sometimes. Having it on the opposite side of the wheel somehow seems more natural, even though you still need to use both hands. Interesting that Nissan seem to have thought of this with the LHD and RHD versions of the S30-series Z.

Emphasis mine.

From this I gathered that the turn signal (indicator) and light switches were in fact reversed. But your post denies that. Alan, what did you mean by that?

Cuong Nguyen wrote:

Out of interest, for those of you that have driven a LHD S30, what about the positioning of the pedal box? Is it in a "nice" position, or is it too close to either the left or right? Maybe that will also help this "debate"

Which raises some questions.

Could someone describe the arrangement of the pedals on a RHD car?

On a LHD car, the clutch is at the left most position, then the brake pedal and lastly the accelerator pedal which is all the way to the right hand side, very tight upon the transmission tunnel. In fact, most cars have a wear spot here from people's feet rubbing against the vinyl as they press on the accelerator.

The throttle linkage on the engine side of the firewall would be something to compare / discuss. On LHD cars, there is a very short distance between the exit point for the throttle pedal rod and the shaft leading to the carburators. Now, presuming that Datsun didn't change the location of the carburators from the left side of the engine to the right side of the engine, and presuming that the foot pedal arrangement is the same as for LHD cars, that would be a very interesting throttle / carburator linkage assembly.

Enrique

Originally posted by EScanlon

Could someone describe the arrangement of the pedals on a RHD car?

You're kidding, right ??

btw love the analogies escanlon!!!

Actually, no, I am serious about this.

Yes, I believe it is the same as the LHD cars, but as others who have NOT seen OR driven a RHD car, this kind of question is something that comes up.

You saw my post regarding the combo switch, and answered me. Yet Alan's seemed to imply that it was reversed, although it may be my misinterpretation.

So are the foot pedals the same or not?I can see some of the advantages for the clutch, but as I mentioned about the throttle linkage, the connection could be interesting to examine. Heck it might help provide an answer to the Throttle Jerk situation mentioned in another post.

I hope the analogies come off as just that, a different way of looking at the situation, which clarifies the point.

2¢

errm ok ... all manual cars have the clutch on the left, then brake, then accelerator pedal.

Originally posted by EScanlon

Huge snip by Alan:

So, RHD cars with the brake on the RH side vs LHD cars with the brake on the RH side can be debated all you want, but in my opinion Datsun may have intended this to ALSO be a switcheable feature. If you look at the plate for the hand brake that is below the jute and vinyl, you will note that other than being welded, they could be interchanged side for side. That would allow the brake to be mounted on either side.

However, unlike most of the other differences between the RHD & LHD parts, this one is very minor.

Enrique,

Many thanks for putting such serious and logical thought into the discussion. I thought this debate was starting to peter out on its own, but you've come in with guns blazing and it feels as though the thread has woken up again.

I quoted your ( very snipped by me ) post above because you have brought up some very pertinent points, but posed the same unanswered question about the Emergency Brake / Handbrake position. Its quite apparent that Nissan made huge efforts to engineer the cars for both LHD and RHD versions, but the question still remains to be answered - why did the Handbrake always stay on the RIGHT side of the tunnel?

As many people in the USA / North America may not have seen an RHD S30-series Z in close up, I'm going to endeavour to take some detail photos of one of my cars later today. I shall try to get good shots of the cockpit and its controls ( including the pedal layout ) and also the carburettor linkage. These might be of some interest to people who have not seen the RHD version before.

Just as a last thought, one of the things that I was hoping to get a discussion going about ( using the Handbrake positioning as a starting topic ) was this whole idea of the S30-series Z being designed specifically "for" the USA / North American market. I have always thought that the car was very cleverly engineered for both RHD and LHD versions, but that the RHD was in no way secondary to the LHD version ( the transmission and engine configuration would always put paid to that theory ). What I want to defend is the integrity of the RHD version. Its most annoying to read that quote describing the Z as "An American car, built in Japan"and I think all the evidence of the hermaphroditic nature of the bodyshell that Enrique has posted above shows that the RHD version of the car was taken just as seriously by the factory as the LHD version.

I'm off to try and get some decent photos now,

All the best,

Alan T.

Allan, do you think that maybe the Japanese used American "inspiration" (I know you would not appreciate the term copy" for the Z as they did for the look of some of their other cars, Skyline +-, celica +++, Laurel+++, cedric++++++...

And that the Z concept was so good that, maybe sometime in the story, they decided to make a world car out of the Z ????

So the inspiration did make it some kind of American car but the primary target could have been the home one??

Wish my English would be better, wish my brain could be smarter... but hey this is Z land after all...

Fred

Originally posted by Caen Fred

Snipped by Alan: So the inspiration did make it some kind of American car but the primary target could have been the home one?? Fred

No Fred,

I think its quite clear that by the time they were getting ready to productionise the car, the major SALES target was the USA / North American market. I don't think that this meant that they had to design something that would be seen as "American Inspired" - surely a lightweight two seater sports car of that period could not be described as "American Inspired"? Wasn't that class of car usually seen as a foreign import ( with the extra touch of glamour that this implied )?

I think your "World Car" quote is quite apt though - as the late Sixties and early Seventies period was when auto manufacturers ( particularly in Japan ) started to realise that this kind of thinking would pay off for them in the long run ( you would have to go back to the days of the Model T Ford to see the start of similar thinking - but in those days the cars for a particular market were made in a factory in the country of sale ).

I certainly don't think that Nissan would have KNOWN that the S30-series Z was going to be a major sales success in that USA / North American market, but its quite plain that they were HOPING that it would be. By all accounts, its runaway success exceeded all of their hopes - and in fact led to major problems in keeping up with demand. This delayed the release of the Export RHD cars ( but not the Home market RHD cars - which were produced right from the beginning ).

I don't think that the design of the S30-series Z was inspired by much from America. Anybody who is interested in automotive styling of the late Twentieth Century would probably acknowledge that the big Italian styling houses were the major influence. Mr Matsuo and his team were certainly fans of the products and styling exercises of these companies.

Anyway, I think the 'styling' of the car is something of a different subject to its interior ergonomics - which is what we were originally discussing with relation to RHD and LHD versions.

I've just come back from taking some photos of the layout of the RHD cars, but its going to be a little while before I can download them.

See you later,

Alan T.

I didn't say the Z styling was inspired an american car, but the Celica is, so are the big Sedans and the pick-up line. Not quite as the same scale. The Z is very European you are right, and Mr G (goofy?) as not a lot to do with that. The only american inspiration is in the overall size of the beast, even biger than the european one...

So back to the famous lever, have you thought about the stupid mistake, the one we have all done one day, the big "gee I forgot" maybe it went trough without real concern? and maybe someone said "oups" at the end of the line but it was too late?

That would be second flaw of this diva, and what could be the #1?

Alan T. wrote:

Its quite apparent that Nissan made huge efforts to engineer the cars for both LHD and RHD versions, but the question still remains to be answered - why did the Handbrake always stay on the RIGHT side of the tunnel?

Using an analogy: The human population has both left and right hands, yet the vast majority are right handed. There must be a reason for this. Or is there?

Although a bit on the sardonic side, it applies. There may be that there isn't a SPECIFIC reason or even an intentional decision by the designers / engineers / production / inventory folks, but rather one of .....no one questioned it until too many things had been designed, built and delivered designed with the handle on the right hand side.

That console on the car you saw, may well have been one of the few prototypes created to demonstrate that in fact it could be done for the Left hand side.

As I think about it, with the vast preponderance of the world's population being Right handed, it may be that whomever was tasked with getting the brake handle done just felt that it would be easier to use on the right hand of the tunnel.

With all due respect Alan, it may be that you are looking for an answer to a question that was never posed.

Alan:

]Its most annoying to read that quote describing the Z as "An American car, built in Japan"and I think all the evidence of the hermaphroditic nature of the bodyshell that Enrique has posted above shows that the RHD version of the car was taken just as seriously by the factory as the LHD version.

I don't know where this quote comes from. Maybe I've read it and have not really paid that much attention to it. I think it may be necessary to consider both the author's nationality and the intended sales market for his book.

Alan:

I think its quite clear that by the time they were getting ready to productionise the car, the major SALES target was the USA / North American market. I don't think that this meant that they had to design something that would be seen as "American Inspired" - surely a lightweight two seater sports car of that period could not be described as "American Inspired"? Wasn't that class of car usually seen as a foreign import ( with the extra touch of glamour that this implied )?

Undoubtedly their major sales focus would have been the U.S.. Back in the late 60's with the U.S. economy running a high war-induced fever, the prospect of being able to sell something - ANYTHING - in the U.S. would have been a very tempting lure.

However, let's recall a few items that would have been part of the mix back when Datsun was considering expanding it's presence in the U.S..

WWII had ended 20 years before but sales of Japanese products in the U.S. were still not viewed in the best of lights. Heck, it used to be a big joke to have "Made in Japan" stamped on an item, and the comedians and pundits all played on it. If the item was kitsch then no doubt someone would point out that it was Japanese in origin.

As a result, when Honda and Yamaha first began to export their motorcycles to the U.S. there was much speculation as to whether or not they would establish a foothold. When Honda took an additional step and introduced the first model of the Civic in the very late 60's, and Datsun had already been shipping the original 1600 and later the 2000 Roadster to the U.S. at first they didn't have sales to make the home office really excited. Yet as time went on, things DID improve.

The Civic went on to become one of the leading automobile models, and it is still in production 30+ years later. Yamaha's motorcycles are legendary, so are the Honda's, and although Yamaha's venture into automobile's may have come about a bit too late for it to really blossom like the Honda or Datsun, it is nonetheless there.

The key point I'm trying to establish here is that in the late 60's Japan needed to not only prove to the U.S. consumer that it's products were not a cheap knock-off that would fall apart at first use, but that their products were in fact what U.S. consumers wanted.

How do you do this? By providing items that THAT market demands. If as you market it you label it as being for that market, well I would like to call that a bit of artistic license with regards to the marketing. Let's not forget that Datsun brought to the Sports Car market the first car priced where the average buyer could fulfill their fantasy of owning a "Foreign 2 seater Sports Car".

2¢

Not just an affordable car but one of quality and style as well as performance. The vary best" bang for the buck ". I have to get rid of this unly dog. I dont mean the car but the avatar!

Originally posted by EScanlon

Using an analogy: The human population has both left and right hands, yet the vast majority are right handed. There must be a reason for this. Or is there?

Although a bit on the sardonic side, it applies. There may be that there isn't a SPECIFIC reason or even an intentional decision by the designers / engineers / production / inventory folks, but rather one of .....no one questioned it until too many things had been designed, built and delivered designed with the handle on the right hand side.

That console on the car you saw, may well have been one of the few prototypes created to demonstrate that in fact it could be done for the Left hand side.

As I think about it, with the vast preponderance of the world's population being Right handed, it may be that whomever was tasked with getting the brake handle done just felt that it would be easier to use on the right hand of the tunnel.

With all due respect Alan, it may be that you are looking for an answer to a question that was never posed.

Enrique, you certainly offer good bang for the buck! Your two Cents worth goes a long way. I have to chop it up into bite size chunks just to even attempt to answer it. I hope this site has enough bandwidth to accomodate our answers to eachother.:classic:

Reading through the above, it was slowly dawning on me that you might even think that ALL right hand drive cars must be un-ergonomic for the majority of the world's population ( seeing as we would have to use our left hand to change gear ). Surely you can't be implying that!? Don't go there!..........

But regardless of what side of the tunnel the Handbrake is on -you still need to use your right hand in LHD and your left hand in RHD, so the question of right-handedness in humans is a distraction. My point is that I thought it was a little bit far away for LHD version drivers. 2manyZ's hinted that he might agree, but Victor said he was happy with it where it is. I don't think we'll find many RHD owners who would say that they thought it was too close for them ( oops! - that's tempting fate ), but the majority of LHD owners also seem to be happy. These are the kind of responses that I was interested to hear when I started the thread.

The Monte Carlo rally car that I posted photos of was built in Nissan's Competition Department workshops at Oppama in 1971 for the 1972 event. LHD cars were also entered in the 1971 event ( built in late 1970 ) and these too had the transposed Handbrakes and Consoles. I have seen very good period pictures of one the late 1970-made cars in a stripped-down condition. They quite clearly show that the tunnel pressing itself was different - so it was not just a case of moving the lever and mechanism over. They went the whole hog and made a special tunnel pressing to do it. This was much too late in the day to be anything to do with pre-production or prototypes of the bodyshells, and I am told that when Rauno Aaltonen first drove a factory rally Z he insisted that the Handbrake in the LHD version be moved to the left side of the tunnel. The Consoles were hand-made to suit in the Competition Department. I think that's interesting.

I don't think we could say that I might be looking for the answer to a question that was never asked. I feel SURE that this matter was discussed at the design stage ( I can't believe that it would not have been, given the level of detail that went into the productionising of LHD and RHD versions ).

But after input from LHD owners, it's starting to become clear to me that most LHD owners don't have a problem with the Emergency Brake / Handbrake positioning, and would not appear to believe that it might be slightly less ergonomic than having it on the same side of the tunnel as you are sitting. That in itself may have answered my question, and provide the answer to why Nissan decided it would be fine to have it ALWAYS on the right hand side of the tunnel.

I'm going to post some photos now, but the discussion has moved on a long way from when they were really needed - so I hope you'll be patient and go back to that point in the discussion again.

Cheers!

Alan T.