Headlights won't come on

[Azclouds]

I am hoping some one can save me a lot of time!! I have a 1977 280 that has never been modified. No re-wiring, no engine swaps, etc. It only has 47k miles on it and was owned by a car collector who kept it in a climate controlled garage. What I am trying to say is that the car has not been patched together. It has only been worked on by certified mechanics and has basically lived the equivalent of the life of luxury for a car!!

Here is my problem.....

Night running lights did not come on but headlights did. Even though the fuse looked fine I changed the fuse anyway and the running lights came on. Then a couple of days later I turned on the lights and they did not come on but the running lights were on. I changed the fuses for the lights (2 10A) and the lights still do not work. Looked at all the wires down the line to the headlights and everything looks like new. Both headlights do not come on.

So I'm thinking the switch in the column. I looked up parts on the internet and the switch seems to be available but a little expensive. (But if that is the problem nothing is too expensive for my baby!! ) I just don't want to waste the price if the symptoms point to something else and someone can help me.

Has anyone gone through this before and what did you find is the answer. I might be missing something.

I appreciate the help,

Jaye

[Azclouds]

Just to add. I took the column cover off and looked at everything and it appears to be original and nothing looks worn or ....or... anything!! It looks like it is almost new.

Thanks for any help anyone can give me on what to check.

I also checked the fusible links (little while plastic box sort of by the struts) and everything looks ok.

[Carl Beck]

Just flip the headlight switch ON/OFF several quick times. The contact points get a film of corrosion on them - and rapidly flipping the switch will usually clear some of it off - and the headlights will work. I'd also installed Dave's Headlight Relay System.... that way it only takes very low voltage to turn the headlights on/off... and saves the switch

FWIW

Carl B.

[Azclouds]

Thanks! I'm off to the garage to try the switch flipping now! I will post results. I have been reading stuff on the site and am trying things. I read to check the ground wire (have not found it yet ) and I am now trying to check to see if I get power to fuses. I hate electrical stuff !!!! I'm just not good at it!! Thanks for your help.

[Wade Nelson]

Clouds, throwing parts ($135 headlight switches) at electrical problems is a very fast way to waste a lot of money.

Find an auto electric shop and pay them up to ONE HOUR of labor $80 to DIAGNOSE what's wrong. You may STILL need a new combo switch

but if not, if it's a bad ground or something else, you SAVE $135.

What if you have a bad voltage regulator and it's burning out headlamps? What if your headlight relay is FUBAR. These guys can diagnose in 20 minutes what would take me DAYS to walk you through over the Internet. And if it's a broken wire buried inside a harness, they can look at a schematic and figure it out and know exactly where to look for it.

Do what you do best, and pay OTHER people to do what THEY do best --- like diagnosing automobile electrical problems.

If you can't read a schematic, and use a DVOM to check continuity, perform a voltage drop test, etc, quite honestly, you've got no business

trying to fix even something as simple as headlights that are out.

And for Gawd's sake don't go get your "buddy down the street" who knows "a little bit about electricity" to help you diagnose it.

[olzed]

I had similar on my 72. It was a wire at the switch that had come unstuck. A cold solder joint, which was not easily spotted.

[Azclouds]

Clouds, throwing parts ($135 headlight switches) at electrical problems is a very fast way to waste a lot of money.

Find an auto electric shop and pay them up to ONE HOUR of labor $80 to DIAGNOSE what's wrong. You may STILL need a new combo switch

but if not, if it's a bad ground or something else, you SAVE $135.

What if you have a bad voltage regulator and it's burning out headlamps? What if your headlight relay is FUBAR. These guys can diagnose in 20 minutes what would take me DAYS to walk you through over the Internet. And if it's a broken wire buried inside a harness, they can look at a schematic and figure it out and know exactly where to look for it.

Do what you do best, and pay OTHER people to do what THEY do best --- like diagnosing automobile electrical problems.

If you can't read a schematic, and use a DVOM to check continuity, perform a voltage drop test, etc, quite honestly, you've got no business

trying to fix even something as simple as headlights that are out.

And for Gawd's sake don't go get your "buddy down the street" who knows "a little bit about electricity" to help you diagnose it.

After I tried what I knew how to do and did not find the answer I called a local shop and have an appointment for it. I never do anything I am not sure of doing. I tested what I could, did not find the answer, so I did what you suggested; called the experts. Thanks for your answer. Now go have a beer and cool off. I'm not going to ruin a car like mine:)

[Zed Head]

It is most likely the dimmer, or high beam/low beam, switch at the base of the turn signal stalk. It's happened to me on two cars. You can spray contact cleaner in to the guts of the switch and work it back and forth and that will probably fix it. It did for me both times. Or you can take it apart and clean it. You might even find that it's stuck and one click will fix it.

[EScanlon]

Geez Wade, after that stomping you might want to check between your toes for debris!

However, although I've been known to share the same tone on other items, I find I must agree with what he wrote.

I'll just keep my shoes and socks on when I stomp you! (j/lk)

Too often a relatively simple, minor fix item gets transmogrified into this frankenstenian BJ of a Sino-Mayan Fire Drill written in Cyrillic alphabet... and all it was was a simple fuse, wire disconnect, relay replace etc. I've seen beautiful and functional vehicles become projects on the "just replace this and..." school of vehicle repair. In fact, I've bought two, for a total of under $1000. One I repaired with a spare part from my parts car, and the other ended up needing an engine... from the parts car. Both had started as real simple items that were blown way out of proportion by well-intentioned prior owners who decided to start swapping parts in the hopes of fixing a problem.

Then with electrickery, one man approaches it with the same amount of technological wizardry that they show on shows like CSI, and ER, with the latest most minute bits of data being required for a preliminary diagnosis let alone a course of treatment, and another guy simply says to stick in a light bulb between two points and if it lights, you're good to go.

At times Occam's Razor needs to be applied, other times it's SFM.

What was intermittent, suddenly starts working after you beat your head on the dash once or twice. Did you do anything proactive, no, and I'll bet you felt bad about the dent in the dash as well as your headache, but that stupid little problem that was there and not there is now.... NOT there. And you find you'll take it.

First thing to do is that you must ask yourself:What was the LAST thing you changed/fixed/replaced?

And this is regardless of WHAT it was. I've seen guys go for repairs on the Heater Valve suddenly not have the Heater Blower, or the glove box light, or their Rear Window Defog, simply for having moved the wire bundles that relate to those systems.

Second thing is to go to that change/fix/repair and see if you inadvertently failed to re-connect or mis-connected something.

If No to both above, then you start looking at components specific to that system.

That's where this forum is very valuable in that we'll give you some of the "stick a bulb between these two wires" type of advice; (as well as the MRI/CT scan in some cases); but if you are uncomfortable doing this kind of stuff, then decidedly ... send it to the experts.

Even the experts get befuddled with electrickery sometimes.

I had a car that killed (as in need to replace) 4 DieHard batteries in the span of 6 months, and their electrical expert (the trainer for the region) checked and re-checked my car each time and told me I'd gotten bad batteries and just replaced the first 3. He assured me ON PAPER that the problem was not with my car as I had told him to replace any parts he felt needed to be replaced in order to stop the problem. On the fourth time I had to be re-started, he told me to take it to a specialist, and based on that specialist's opinion, Sears would either replace or refund my money for the battery, etc.

I made an appointment with the man, drove to his HOUSE during my lunch time, the guy came out munching on a sandwich, asked me a couple of questions and during this time he removed ONE screw from a wire from the battery to the body, pulled out a bit of sandpaper, scuffed the hole, replaced the screw, turns to me and says "That will be 20 bucks, and I'll call Sears and they'll swap your battery this afternoon." As he said is what happened.

That car drove for 3 more years with that battery before it got totaled in an accident. What was it? The main ground to the body. Because of corrosion there, ALL of the car's electrical system was grounding through incidental contacts, which when the car was parked showed good... but NOT when the car was operating. The battery was being cycled on a horrendous charge/no-charge cycle that was burning up each battery. Ground corrected, problem gone. A simple solution that had defied the best troubleshooting machines and mind at my local Sears. May he was not a JPL Electrical Specialist, but he was more of one than I was at that time.

In a nutshell, start simple with very minor "replacements" and "repairs" and you won't blow it way out of manageability. Start throwing parts at it and before long.... How much did you want for that project in your garage that's been sitting for 5 years?

2¢

E

[Azclouds]

Geez Wade, after that stomping you might want to check between your toes for debris!

However, although I've been known to share the same tone on other items, I find I must agree with what he wrote.

I'll just keep my shoes and socks on when I stomp you! (j/lk)

Too often a relatively simple, minor fix item gets transmogrified into this frankenstenian BJ of a Sino-Mayan Fire Drill written in Cyrillic alphabet... and all it was was a simple fuse, wire disconnect, relay replace etc. I've seen beautiful and functional vehicles become projects on the "just replace this and..." school of vehicle repair. In fact, I've bought two, for a total of under $1000. One I repaired with a spare part from my parts car, and the other ended up needing an engine... from the parts car. Both had started as real simple items that were blown way out of proportion by well-intentioned prior owners who decided to start swapping parts in the hopes of fixing a problem.

Then with electrickery, one man approaches it with the same amount of technological wizardry that they show on shows like CSI, and ER, with the latest most minute bits of data being required for a preliminary diagnosis let alone a course of treatment, and another guy simply says to stick in a light bulb between two points and if it lights, you're good to go.

At times Occam's Razor needs to be applied, other times it's SFM.

What was intermittent, suddenly starts working after you beat your head on the dash once or twice. Did you do anything proactive, no, and I'll bet you felt bad about the dent in the dash as well as your headache, but that stupid little problem that was there and not there is now.... NOT there. And you find you'll take it.

First thing to do is that you must ask yourself:What was the LAST thing you changed/fixed/replaced?

And this is regardless of WHAT it was. I've seen guys go for repairs on the Heater Valve suddenly not have the Heater Blower, or the glove box light, or their Rear Window Defog, simply for having moved the wire bundles that relate to those systems.

Second thing is to go to that change/fix/repair and see if you inadvertently failed to re-connect or mis-connected something.

If No to both above, then you start looking at components specific to that system.

That's where this forum is very valuable in that we'll give you some of the "stick a bulb between these two wires" type of advice; (as well as the MRI/CT scan in some cases); but if you are uncomfortable doing this kind of stuff, then decidedly ... send it to the experts.

Even the experts get befuddled with electrickery sometimes.

I had a car that killed (as in need to replace) 4 DieHard batteries in the span of 6 months, and their electrical expert (the trainer for the region) checked and re-checked my car each time and told me I'd gotten bad batteries and just replaced the first 3. He assured me ON PAPER that the problem was not with my car as I had told him to replace any parts he felt needed to be replaced in order to stop the problem. On the fourth time I had to be re-started, he told me to take it to a specialist, and based on that specialist's opinion, Sears would either replace or refund my money for the battery, etc.

I made an appointment with the man, drove to his HOUSE during my lunch time, the guy came out munching on a sandwich, asked me a couple of questions and during this time he removed ONE screw from a wire from the battery to the body, pulled out a bit of sandpaper, scuffed the hole, replaced the screw, turns to me and says "That will be 20 bucks, and I'll call Sears and they'll swap your battery this afternoon." As he said is what happened.

That car drove for 3 more years with that battery before it got totaled in an accident. What was it? The main ground to the body. Because of corrosion there, ALL of the car's electrical system was grounding through incidental contacts, which when the car was parked showed good... but NOT when the car was operating. The battery was being cycled on a horrendous charge/no-charge cycle that was burning up each battery. Ground corrected, problem gone. A simple solution that had defied the best troubleshooting machines and mind at my local Sears. May he was not a JPL Electrical Specialist, but he was more of one than I was at that time.

In a nutshell, start simple with very minor "replacements" and "repairs" and you won't blow it way out of manageability. Start throwing parts at it and before long.... How much did you want for that project in your garage that's been sitting for 5 years?

2¢

E

EScanlon;

Whew! A little long winded aren't cha! But I do agree with you that cars do what they want to do, when they want to do it. I wasn't looking for Cyber-bully Wade to (as he put it) 'DAYS to walk through' fixing it with me. How he knows what I know and don't know is beyond me. But I guess I will take him at his word since the anonymity of posting things on websites gives him free license to say and think what he will. All of my other cars are American and I was looking for maybe something particular to a 78Z that I might not have thought to check. But when you think of it...how cool that you have Wade on your web site to help everyone. He seems to know everything about everything!

Thanks for your insight. At least I enjoyed your feedback.

BTW: it was the light switch which was my first guess and verified by the 'professional' at my local shop. Thank goodness. Easy fix. And thank you to all who helped me and posted pleasant and helpful tips.

[Wade Nelson]

Ok, Ok, maybe I overreacted a bit. I apologize. You see, I'm the guy who comes out, scuffs the paint off underneath the ground.... I'm BSEE, worked on an auto assembly line diagnosing any and EVERY electrical problem that came down the line, from airbags to ecms, ASCE certified, blah, blah, blah.

And NOTHING makes me sadder than seeing bad splices, detour wiring, inline fuses, and all the crap the "neighbor down the street" put in...

Along with a stack of bills for $300+ in repairs and parts that DIDN'T FIX THE PROBLEM

Because i know, myself, or someone like me, a true AUTO ELECTRICAL EXPERT, probably COULD have diagnosed it in 30 minutes or less.

And saved you a wad of cash. And put SOME of that $300 into MINES!

So why is it so friggin' hard to convince folks to go to THAT guy first, instead of last?

I stomped you out of love, AZcloud. Really and truly.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Wade Nelson

[EScanlon]

Jaye;

When you mention the light switch being at fault, did you repair or replace it? If replace, you might want to save the old and see if you can repair it, as the replacements can be spendy.

By the way, it isn't necessary to quote the whole previous message to reply to it. Not a big deal, but it just gets cluttered.

FWIW

E