Drum and Toyota 4x4 front brake questions.

[mr_han_solo]

Hello,

I some different questions regarding the brakes.

On a lot of threads I have heard people say that the 240z stock rear drums are on par with any disc upgrade. They also mention some drum upgrades, but never specify what the exact upgrades are. I am looking into stainless steel lines and rear performance brake shoes. Is there anything else I need as far as a rear drum upgrade?

On my front brakes I am upgrading to the Toyota 4X4 breaks. I was actually looking at getting the vented ones. However, I read that I will need a machined spacer to correctly move the hub from the rotor for wheel clearance and matching bolts. The source of these were Modern Motorsports. However, I see that they no longer sell these. I was wondering if there was any other source for these spacers? If not how much of a performance hit will I be taking if I back down to the standard Toyota 4x4 brakes? I do plan on doing some auto crossing in this car.

The other brake upgrades I will be doing is the 15/16 master cylinder from a '79 280zx.

Hope someone can chime in so I can load up on some parts to get me started.

Thanks,

Han

[EuroDat]

If you are just Auto crossing, IMHO I would have the calipers rebuilt and plated, fit s.steel hoses all round, new wheel cylinders in the rear and maybe the master cylinder.

Clean the brake switch and brake proportioning valve. Replace the standard front rotors with cross drilled sloted rotors.

The rest has more "bling" factor than braking improvement.

[Zed Head]

These guys seem to have all of the things that you're looking for, except the drum shoes. To each his own, have fun. Click around the Products section.

Silverminemotors.com

Edit - should say that Eurodat gave good advice. But sometimes it's just fun to modify anyway.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Zed Head

[Travel'n Man]

Great pads are the key to great brakes - after a rebuild and flush. Porterfields are my personal pick. Remember to flush once every 2 years regardless of mileage driven.

[pbarcher]

Han,

I installed the Toyota non-vented calipers last year, with StopTech slotted rotors and Centric Posi Quiet ceramic pads that I got from tirerack.com. Stainless front hoses too. At the same time I installed the 15/16th master cylinder and had the rear brakes completely overhauled using Nissan shoes.

Initially I was pleased and the ceramic pads have no dust or noise. However, on a spirited outing with the Northern VA Z Car Club I started to smell the fronts overheating. When we stopped I touched the rear drums (new) and they were barely warm!

If you do enough research on this, you'll find that the problem is that this swap upsets the balance and the fronts are doing almost all of the braking. There is no easy way to fix this, and an adjustable proportioning valve is not the answer. The purpose of these are to reduce pressure to the rears, while an increase is really needed. Swapping to rear discs is a possible solution, but you'll find that many are dissatisfied with this because of the tuning necessary to find the proper balance. I'm not suggesting that the brake system can't be upgraded, but swapping parts without thorough research is unlikely to be satisfactory.

One complication is the size of your wheels, which you didn't indicate. I have aftermarket 14" wheels that I really like. However even with the non-vented Toyota calipers I had the grind the calipers for clearance. The vented calipers will require spacers or larger wheels.

Personally I'll be going back to the stock configuration, but will have the front calipers restored by PMB Performance. Others on this forum highly recommend this company but I have no experience with them myself.

Hope this helps.

Peter

[EuroDat]

Peter says it all in post #5.

A lot of poeple forget that the braking system they are "trying" to upgrade had a complete R&D department testing and improving the system until its final release. It remained virtually unchanged (except the rear wheel cylinders in the 280Z) which says a lot about the quality of the design.

Most of us are upgrading and doing their best to tune it in a parking lot or on the open road and no access to a test unit where hours of testing can be done.

The standard Z system in good working order, fitted with Porterfield or KVR pads and shoes will be more than adeqate for any street driving and autox.

Just my 2 cents

Chas

Edit: My brakes reacted unevenly and I found that machining the rear drum to exactly the same ID help a lot. Braking is now very smooth and even. They had almost 1 mm difference in diameter. I think one may have been replaced by the PO. I made them both 229.5mm which is still within the maximum allowable diameter.

Edited December 25, 2013 by EuroDat
Brake drum ID

[grannyknot]

If you have 16" or larger wheels then this might be your best option,

Yet another rear drum to disk conversion option! - Vendor's Forum - HybridZ

Nigel a Z enthusiast that has put the time in and come up with and off the shelf combination of hardware that might be perfect, but only for you guys that run larger wheels.

[Travel'n Man]

Remember to upgrade your rubber brake lines to a high quality Stainless Steel to assist with better braking effort.

[Travel'n Man]

[tlorber]

I had considered upgrading my calipers as well, but the prospect of changing the balance concerned me. I put in the stainless steel brake lines, and upgraded compound shoes/pads from Motorsport. These made a huge difference and I am happy with them. This cost me around $200.00.

I had previously changed out my MC with a 1" Wilwood, which I like.

Do not get a racing compound for your brake pads unless that is where you plan on using the car. That compound must heat up before working optimally, and street conditions do not permit this (or at least they shouldn't).

[mr_han_solo]

I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Master Cylinder. I also went ahead and bought new wheel cylinders, shoes and stainless steel lines. All of this was the day before Christmas...

Unfortunately, I also bought the Toyota 4x4 (non vented) calipers and pads. Now I suppose that I could return them, but I was wondering if there was any more input. pbarcher, thank you for your previous input. I am going to do some more researching on the Toyota front and drum rears. As I said before I can still return them, but I just want to make sure that there isn't any way around the brake balance problem.

[pbarcher]

Han,

I would return the non-vented calipers and concentrate on optimizing the stock system. Premium slotted rotors, stainless brakes hoses, and your choice of high performance (not racing) pads should be a good start.

Remember that you are dealing with 40 year old parts, and anything that is rebuilt is likely suspect. This is especially so for the calipers, so check out the link in my previous post.

Also beware of aftermarket "performance" rear shoes. I was having rear brake problems and found that my aftermarket shoes were a full inch shorter on the leading edge that OEM! Stock Nissan parts are almost always a better choice, even though they may be more expensive. Your local dealer will probably give you a 20% discount if you ask nicely or are affiliated with a local Z club.

After you've made some progress, post again with your results. We're always here to help.

Peter