Ignition problems Help please

[Zed Head]

Then I noticed that I would get a weak spark when the key was turned to start , nothing while cranking ( would get a weak spark once in a while), then would spark when key was released back to on position.

I have no way of checking the box.

My thoughts are:

1) crane xr-3000 with ps-91 coil (motorsport auto recommendation) This is my choice as of now.

2) msd 6al (expensive)

3) 280zx distributor E12-80 module (30 y.o technology)

4) pertronix ignition unit ( would I need a 240z dizzy)

I have not seen a lot of feedback on the xr-3000

Any Help is appreciated Thanks Mike

Feel free to disagree with anything below. It's just my understanding as of right now.

Started writing and kind of went crazy. The XR-3000 and the GM HEI are very similar in operation, and are basic module replacements, no work on the distributor,but ending up with better electronics. The Mallory and the ZX and the 123 are distributor replacements, the ZX and the 123 probably give stronger spark. The Pertronix is basically a swap of similar electronic systems, no performance benefit.

Your signs do look like ignition module failure. The transistor in the module is supposed to control current to the coil. The fact that you get sparks when just turning the key suggests that the transistor is shorted. The factory service manual might have a method for checking the module if you have the tools. Even so, the electronics technology is old and out-dated.

On the options:

1) crane xr-3000 with ps-91 coil - the technology for "dwell" control is common today. The $20 GM HEI module has the same technology. that's where the "high-energy" comes from, maximum coil charging all the time in a unit that can handle the current flow. The XR-3000 recommends bypassing the ballast, the XR-700 does not. An example of old versus new.

2) msd 6al (expensive) - The MSD is a capacitive discharge system. It only uses the coil as a transformer. And the M, for multiple, is only active at low RPM. At mid to high RPM there's only a single spark.

3) 280zx distributor E12-80 module (30 y.o technology) - The ZX has the "dwell" control technology also. You can buy new modules, but they are expensive. If you buy a distributor you'll have to make sure the advance curves are what you want.

4) pertronix ignition unit ( would I need a 240z dizzy) - Pertronix was one of the first electronic units available and have done a good job of holding market share. I think that the under-cap module can't handle the current flow to provide big spark though. They recommend resistance on the primary circuit so can't flow as much current as the others.

5) Mallory - another early system that has lasted. They recommend factory plug gaps, and use an undercap module also.

6) 123ignition - this unit has dwell control and the USA distributor has just had adapters fabricated for use on the L6. It's not "two wires and go" though. You need a PC to program it if you get the programmable, or you need to pick an advance curve for your engine. It's the most flexible though, but is a complete distributor not just an ignition module. I've seen internet threads from 2004 so they've been around for a while on the European cars (Alfa Romeo, Porsche, Jaguar, etc).

Here's some links -

123ignition - Nissan L6 Forum - HybridZ

Datsun Conversion | 123IgnitionUSA.com What is 123Ignition about? - Perfect Timing - w/ "Formula" Technology | Ed

Motorsport! Mallory Unilite Distributor, 70-74 240Z-260Z, *75-83 - The Z Store! Nissan-Datsun 240Z-260Z-280Z-280ZX-300ZX(Z31/Z32)-350Z-370Z Parts

Motorsport! Crane XR-3000 Electronic Ignition System, 70-73 240Z - The Z Store! Nissan-Datsun 240Z-260Z-280Z-280ZX-300ZX(Z31/Z32)-350Z-370Z Parts

https://prestoliteperformance.com/media/instructions/mallory/Mallory_Instructions_unilite_distributor_wiring_diagram_test_procedure_1214M_0000.pdf

http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/instructions/9000-0700_.pdf

Edited February 15, 2014 by Zed Head

[Captain_Zeros]

Feel free to disagree with anything below. It's just my understanding as of right now.

Started writing and kind of went crazy........

ADDITIONAL CRAZY INCOMING, copied this over from my post in another thread:

Directed at folks with crappy high vac advance malaise era 280zx distributors!

Now this is something I wished I would've documented, by I am running a 1981 non-turbo electronic distributor... you know... the one with about a billion degrees of vacuum advance (30 to be specific, more than twice the 14 degrees my car came with stock, but I don't want to deal with points). It wasn't particularly drivable, so I figured what the hell, and cored out the little epoxy plug in the end of the vacuum advance servo. (pointy hand tools and patience are suitable, I think I used a pocket knife)

Inside there were two screws within each other, a large coarse insert that changed the inner volume of the diaphragm chamber by a bit, and a long skinny central narrow one that serves as a bump-stop for total throw distance. I monkied with it using the high tech approach of throwing a protractor on it and eyeballing it, corroborated by measuring the travel of the vacuum servo when I sucked on it with a piece of nice clean vacuum hose and doing some bar napkin math and was able to achieve somewhere in the vicinity of 7.5 degrees of vac advance in the distributor plus or minus a degree or so (15 at the crank, gearing and all that). Then capped it off with a new plug in the end made of RTV (the screws are NOT airtight). A timing light corroborated that yes, in fact, I had achieved fairly close to 15 degrees of advance at the crank.

All this being unscientific and from the angle of "this part is junk to me if I can't modify it, so if I break it modifying it... oh well". All things considered I don't have much of any control over the characteristics of that advance because I haven't change the diaphragm itself, only it's overall travel limit, but I've been daily driving my Z on it for over a year now and it feels great, some day I'll rip it apart and take pictures, I didn't at the time because it was all experimental and I wasn't expecting much. Considering I don't have as much mechanical advance as I might like, I DO have to run quite a bit more static timing, I forget the numbers offhand, but it doesn't cause any issues for me, I just set timing appropriately at full mechanical advance. Anyhow, I haven't seen this particular modification documented anywhere, just people saying "Some distributors are not suitable", so I figured I'd throw in my two bits.

/additional crazy

[GRLS30-001855]

Zed, The manual said to test the transistor box on the Datsun transistor box tester. Kind of funny.

I have ordered the crane xr-3000 and Ps-91.. When all completed and running(fingers crossed) I will come back and let everyone know what/how completed. Thanks to all again, Mike

[GRLS30-001855]

Captain, here is a quote from HybridZ on the vacuum advance "solution" they came up with.

Ducer, on 16 Mar 2012 - 4:01 PM, said:

Additional zx dizzy modificatio. Retarding the vacuum adcance.

So after experiencing the massive zx vacuum advance and curve i pondered about a solution and i got one. As an aquarium hobbiest i found that using an adjustable air valve is a simple way to reduce the suction and thus limiting the zx dizzy's diaphram operation. So i went on ebay and purchased a nice chrome $3 dollar air valve. After setting the base timing at 7 degrees and playing with the air valve ive managed to get the advance to be at 20-25 degrees at full load. Without this limitation it would be over 30 degrees at full load. With this simple valve you can set your base timing higher to 10-15 degrees and you can lower the advance under load. In addition you can diable or enable the vacuum advance with a turn of the knob. I highly recommend doing this instead of plugging off the vac advance. Its like a simple manual vacuum contol. And it works awesome and looks cool. NO need to fiddle with the distributor plates and complicated process to reduce the vacucum advance. Enjoy

fea84b29.jpg

[Captain_Zeros]

Interesting. Not sure if I trust it though, as it wouldn't actually limit travel.

[madkaw]

Interesting. Not sure if I trust it though, as it wouldn't actually limit travel.

I think thats exactly what it does, and it sounds like a great idea.

I do believe the dizzy would have to be in optimum working condition to work smoothly enough for this type of control

Edited February 19, 2014 by madkaw

[Captain_Zeros]

Effectively it would be an adjustable restriction orifice, right?

That might make you see less vacuum on the vacuum servo at any given point, but the vacuum servo would still has it's full travel (it might just need harder vacuum to get there), unless I'm mistaken.

Edit: A restrictor IS a proven method of smoothing out a vacuum signal, it would cause your vac advance to become less peaky which isn't a bad thing in itself.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Captain_Zeros

[Zed Head]

An air valve would control the speed at which full vacuum advance was reached, or could be used as an on-off switch (open-closed). But full vacuum advance would still be reached, at cruise, only the rate at which it got there would only be changed. I think that might be what CZ was saying. (Speaking of timing, I see he replied at the same time).

Conversely though, it would also delay timing retardation when the throttle was opened. Holding timing advanced when you don't want it.

An air pressure regulator could affect the limit of the advance. But that would cost more than three dollars.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Zed Head

[GRLS30-001855]

I installed the Crane XR-3000 and PS-91 yesterday and she fired right up. I am very happy. Install was pretty straight forward. I could have used my Pertronix 1.5 ohm coil, but decided to make the install manufacturer specific. My tach is still not working ( didn't operate before this install) so I will have to trace that out. Thanks again for the help, Mike

[playee007]

HI, after you did your 3000 and the 91 did you need to use the e12-05? Did you just unplug the ecu "e12-05" and throw it away? The reason I am asking is I am having the same problem, It won't fire while I try starting it, but sits there and sparks while the key is on???? so I would like to know after you did what you did what do I do with the plug where the ecu pluge in??

Thanks,

Sonny

[GRLS30-001855]

Just unplug the E12-05 from the harness. It is just about that simple. Yours is definitely doing what mine was. Hope this helps.