Mr.Uemura wrote a book "making story of a Fairlady-Z"

[HS30-H]

8 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

When ask in 1996 who designed the Z Car - Mr. K responded as shown here:

http://www.zhome.com/MrKLetterToBill.jpg

 

Are you citing this as evidence of fact?

I'd say it makes it even clearer that we are talking about the work of many hands, most of them not even getting a name-check. Hitoshi Uemura, for example.

Personal anecdote: I stood in front of Yutaka Katayama in Japan and listened while he said "I designed it". But he was already well into his nineties and I didn't take it literally. He was standing next to Yoshihiko Matsuo, who didn't bat an eyelid.

If we are going to research and curate the history of these cars we have to weight up all evidence and come to a studied and balanced view. Relying on one source - as though it is the font of all truth and wisdom - is just not enough.   

[87mj]

On ‎9‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 11:43 AM, HS30-H said:

This is a perfect example of what I'm tempted to call Katayama Lore.

The origin of the anecdote was Mr Koichi IWATA of Nissan Japan's Export Department, who accompanied the display of two cars (210-series Bluebirds) and a small pickup truck at the 1958 Los Angeles Imported Car Show. Mr IWATA reported that he drove at least one of the 210s around the Los Angeles area, and that it had struggled to keep up with traffic on the freeways. His conclusion was that it was almost dangerously underpowered for freeway on-ramps and inclines in comparison with larger-engined domestics. Of course, he reported this to his superiors in Japan.

Mr KATAYAMA appears to have, and I'm being polite here..., inherited the anecdote as his own. Mr KATAYAMA arrived in the USA in 1960...  

No 4 cyl 'prototype' of the S30-series Z was sent to the USA.

I think I was misquoted.  It seems to happen to me a lot.  My understanding was there was a 4 cyl prototype car.  Not an S30 with a 4 cyl engine.  I don't remember ever reading that such a car existed.

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, 87mj said:

I think I was misquoted.  It seems to happen to me a lot.  My understanding was there was a 4 cyl prototype car.  Not an S30 with a 4 cyl engine.  I don't remember ever reading that such a car existed.

In that case what "prototype" with a 4cyl engine was sent to the USA, and ended up with a 6cyl engine for production on Katayama's say-so? Nissan's most successful models in the north American market all used 4cyl engines.

As I've pointed out, those "couldn't keep up with Freeway traffic", "dangerously slow" and "more power needed" stories come from the first Datsun models sent to the USA in late 1950s. Yes, they were underpowered and Japanese consumers - just as much as anyone else - needed a better product. The likes of Nissan, Toyota, Prince, Honda, Isuzu, Mazda and others were busy making that a reality less than 15 years after the total devastation of war.   

[240260280]

An I6 (L20) was first produced in 1965.( Reference).  Planning, design, and development for this engine must have been in 1964 or earlier. 

S30 design and Nissan I6 are well aligned in time for anyone to say the obvious: "Hey lets put that big engine in that car!". 

Edited September 14, 2019 by 240260280

[kats]

Thanks everyone, this is very interesting to discuss.

When I home , I will write what I think .

I need to review Mr. Tamura’s Letters which describe what was happening when he worked so hard on the clay model . That will indicate when and what made S30 went to have six - cylinder engine. And of course I need to read through again Mr. Uemura’s book , Mr. Matsuo’s book ,and old magazines which were featuring an interview to the “ chief “ of design, engineering, marketing, etc .

It seems very difficult to have one answer for everyone ( who is the father , mother , or MVP kind of things . I think each one can have whatever who wants in his mind ) . 

However we are seeing “what and how they did “ and  “ who did that “ at that time . 

Kats

[Carl Beck]

On 9/14/2019 at 8:45 AM, 240260280 said:

An I6 (L20) was first produced in 1965.( Reference).  Planning, design, and development for this engine must have been in 1964 or earlier. 

S30 design and Nissan I6 are well aligned in time for anyone to say the obvious: "Hey lets put that big engine in that car!". 

However - nothing ever seems to work out so simply. I believe that there are good reasons no one initially said - “Hey lets put that big engine in that car”. 

 

Mr.Idia revealed in an interview with Nostalic Hero Magazine that he started development of an in-line six cylinder engine in July of 1964. The purpose of this was to compete with Toyota, which already had a six cylinder engine in the Toyota Crown. In order to catch-up with Toyota Mr. Idia’s team, in the Large Engine Development section was given only one year to develop the L20.  The L20 was introduced in Oct. of 1965 in the Cedric.

 

Mr. Idia tell us that the fastest way to develop an in-line six cylinder engine, was to use an existing 4 cylinder block and add two cylinders. Which he did. He said he liked the Mercedes Benz OHC and chain driven valve train - so he used that.

 

Because of the rushed development, and shortened evaluation cycles, the L20 suffered from several problems. Some problems were found during endurance bench testing, others showed up later on road testing and as customers put more miles on them and made complaints.

 

The L20 obtained high power of 115ps by using SU twin pots, in order to compete with the Prince six cylinder engines that already existed. However here were problems with engine component parts suffering premature failures. The output adjustment of two carburetors was difficult and the idle speed was so high it resulted in increased fuel costs.  Customers complained about this. Larger oil consumption was another problem due to bad valve guides, valve stem oil seals and oil rings.

 

The engine was improved one year later to solve some of these problems - maintenance was improved and they used a single down-draft carburetor,  but max power was reduced to 105ps.

 

The improved L20A was the result of engine development having been turned over to the Small Engine Development team, after they developed the L16 for the Datsun 510. The L16 benefited from a complete development cycle, so the L20A used the improvements from the L16 and added two cylinders to that.

 

All these problems resulted in the L20 being a short lived engine, and they were known to the people within Nissan. I can’t see them planing on using an engine that was going out of production. I can see them planing on using the new L20A as it was based on the successful L16 and in development within the Small Engine Group at the time. Executive management wanted to use the new Price S20 and  Mr. K knew the L24 was coming. Mr. K was responsible for getting the L16 designed and put into production for the 510 for America. 

 

Nostalgic Hero, Vol. 102, April 2004

http://zhome.com/DatsunLSeries/L20NH2004April.htm

 

English translation:

http://zhome.com/DatsunLSeries/L20NH2004AprilTrans.htm

 

 

[240260280]

OK so that explains the apparent M180 Engine Lineage.  It was a tribute/replica-like borrowing.  Now we know the complete story!

 

Interesting the development went L6 >> L4 >> L6.

Edited September 15, 2019 by 240260280

[HS30-H]

16 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

Mr.Idia revealed in an interview with Nostalic Hero Magazine that...

 

16 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

In order to catch-up with Toyota Mr. Idia’s team...

 

16 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

Mr. Idia tell us...

His name was Hiroshi Iida: 飯田浩 (Iida Hiroshi).

That's usually romanised with a double letter 'i', although a macron over a single letter 'i' might be more accurate linguistically: Īda Hiroshi.

[HS30-H]

18 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

However - nothing ever seems to work out so simply. I believe that there are good reasons no one initially said - “Hey lets put that big engine in that car”.

 

So are you stating categorically that nobody said it, or are you stating that the L20 six was not the six cylinder engine first slated for the 'Maru Z'/'270KK' project? As I asked before (rhetorically...), how could anyone - let alone Katayama - have specifically requested the L20A or L24 when they didn't even exist at that point? And why are you apparently so scared to consider that the 'old' L20 six was part of the design and engineering process? What's the problem with that?

 

18 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

Mr. Idia tell us that the fastest way to develop an in-line six cylinder engine, was to use an existing 4 cylinder block and add two cylinders. Which he did.

 

Which "existing 4 cylinder block" was that? 

 

18 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

The L20 obtained high power of 115ps by using SU twin pots, in order to compete with the Prince six cylinder engines that already existed. However here were problems with engine component parts suffering premature failures. The output adjustment of two carburetors was difficult and the idle speed was so high it resulted in increased fuel costs.  Customers complained about this. Larger oil consumption was another problem due to bad valve guides, valve stem oil seals and oil rings.

 

The engine was improved one year later to solve some of these problems - maintenance was improved and they used a single down-draft carburetor,  but max power was reduced to 105ps.

 

Twin carb versions of the C130-series Cedric were never dropped and the 'old' L20 six - with progressive updates and improvements in materials - was produced and sold well into 1970. This is one of the casualties of a poor non-technical translation of the Hiroshi Iida interview in Nos Hero and a lack of understanding of the Japanese market models.

Of course, what you're doing is setting out your stall to paint the L20 six as 'bad' and the L16/L24 as 'good'. Because...

 

18 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

The improved L20A was the result of engine development having been turned over to the Small Engine Development team, after they developed the L16 for the Datsun 510. The L16 benefited from a complete development cycle, so the L20A used the improvements from the L16 and added two cylinders to that.

 

Ah, here it is. L16 being portrayed as genesis with no mention of the L13. Because...

 

18 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

I can see them planing on using the new L20A as it was based on the successful L16 and in development within the Small Engine Group at the time. Executive management wanted to use the new Price S20 and  Mr. K knew the L24 was coming. Mr. K was responsible for getting the L16 designed and put into production for the 510 for America. 

 

Katayama Lore ahoy! 

When did Katayama know the L24 was "coming", Carl? Got a date for that?

And we have the old "L16 for America" nonsense in there too. The L16 - designed along with the L13 - was part of the L-gata modular series that was used in the Japanese market, later to include the L14, L15 and L18. The L16 was not "for America", it was for Nissan, and the Japanese market got it too. Katayama was not "responsible for getting the L16 designed", he was simply lobbying for more power, more flexibility and better driveability, which was what the Japanese market also wanted. He was not creating particular bore and stroke combinations. 

 

18 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

All these problems resulted in the L20 being a short lived engine, and they were known to the people within Nissan.

You're painting the L20 six as some kind of failure. What does "short lived" mean? It was in production for a good five years and used for export markets as well as domestic. Being the very first Nissan 'L-gata' OHC design it was due for updating by 1969, which was a natural process and made sense for ongoing commonalisation of componentry, installations and servicing. You're drawing an arbitrary line in the middle of a normal progression.

 

18 hours ago, Carl Beck said:

I can’t see them planing on using an engine that was going out of production.

Like they did with - for example - the C10-series Skyline? It debuted in short-nose form (G15 4cyl engine) in July 1967, with the L20 six - yes, the 'bad' one, following in September 1968 with the debut of the GC10 models. At one point Nissan was selling C10-series Skylines with both the 'old' L20 six and the updated L20A in the C10-series Skyline lineup, with the 'A' suffix added to avoid confusion between the two types.

So, far from Nissan not "planning on using an engine that was going out of production", they did just that very thing on the C10-series Skyline. C10-series Skyline production during its 1967 through 1972 life was knocking on the door of half a million units. 

 

The first six cylinder engine slated for the 'Maru Z'/'270KK' project - which would become the S30-series Z - can only have been the 'old' L20 six, because that's all that existed at the time. It was soon joined by the S20 and, by the time the project matured, the L20 had progressed - naturally - to its updated L20A type form. Unless we look at what else Nissan was designing and producing during the same period we will never fully understand the S30-series Z.    

Edited September 16, 2019 by HS30-H

[kats]

Thanks Carl , yes I think so too , it is not that simple . Reading many books from my book collection , I see these.

1961 Mr.K started a KAKU “ U “ project to let not only engineers but also executives know what is needed for selling cars in the US . 

Mr. K and Mr . Hara they met already at this point .

1965 L20 six cylinder went on production 

1965 Mr. K became a president of Nissan USA

1965 Mr. Matsuo / Mr. Yoshida / Mr. Chiba these styling designers began to study for a new sports car 

1966 Chassis Engineers had began to study for a new sports car ( Mr. Kambara is the key person for this ) 

1966 late Mr. K met Mr. Matsuo, at this point the cray model which would become S30 was not settled yet .

1967 is the most important year for the birth of the S30 I think .

1967 Feb Mr. Tamura joined the studio and started refreshing the body .

Mr.K saw a cray model and said “ I buy this car “ . 

1967 Mar 

Mr .Hara who was a manager of Design engineering and styling section had been watching activity of styling designers and chassis engineers had had decided to start a project of a new sports car . He also believed Nissan can make a new sports car and well sold in the US . 

1967 April 

A meeting was held by production management to set the target of a new sports car.

This is the moment of S30 officially became to have six- cylinder engine.

A base model is four -cylinder engine, a high performance model is six-cylinder engine. 

And set the target main market - USA .

However this was not seem to tell the styling designer until June , Mr.Tamura . Because he said “ one day Mr. Matsuo came to see my work and suddenly told me “ this car became to have six-cylinder engine “ . That was the summer of 1967 “ .

1967 June 

1st new sports car meeting was held and 

this project was named “ Maru Z Kei kaku “ . The engine has two types , L16 and L20 .

1967 November 

Mr.Hara had an idea to achieve an approval of a new sports car from executives. I think Mr. Hara did a great job at the presentation.

So the answer of the question “What made S30 prototype upgrade to a six- cylinder engine from a four- cylinder engine? will be , 

“ the meeting of production management held April 1967 “ .

As a side note , Maru Z Kei Kaku decided to install a L24 for USA model is July 1968 .

Kats

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by kats

[kats]

Thanks Alan , if we don’t understand fully line up of Nissan at that time , we can’t see what was happening with the S30 .

Kats

[240260280]

You can see carb lines like that in the early engine fsm.  I thought they were from a 2000 roadster.