Hagerty Auction Results Interesting But Maybe Troubling

[Zedyone_kenobi]

Looking at my hagerty magazine this morning, I saw some auction results from Monterey.  The classic car market is turning into a full fledged commodity.  Which I do not like really.  These are cars to be enjoyed, not traded like a barrel of oil or Apple stock.  Back on topic...

 

The prices were enlighteneing: 

 

A 1995 911 turbo sold for 190k bucks, so the 911 bubble has not popped yet.

 

Closure to our hearts the japanese market has picked up serious steam. 

 

A Honda S600 went for 44280 bucks

 

A 1972 2000 GTR skyline brought a staggering 242,000 dollars

 

And finally,

 

A 67 mazda cosmo sold for a whopping 264,000 dollars.

 

These are incredible numbers.  Not too long ago we were seeing 2000 skylines going for 25-30k.  Cosmos I saw for less than 20 as well.

 

With more and more ferrari's and Porsches approaching record numbers, I think the speculators have turned to japanese metal for a quick buck.

 

 

 

I have mixed feelings about auctions... they do not really represent the real world, however, they do influence prices as they set high water marks and as you all know, a rising tide raises all ships or something like that.

 

So if I am a rich investor, with a couple of million to play with, and I see japanese cars as market that is up and coming (which it is) and I want to kick start it. 

 

Can I create PERCIEVED value by getting a known collector to buy at an absurdly high price at a high profile auction.  If the auction companies (who get filthy rich over these auctions) decide that this will be the start of the Japanese invasion, they can grab a bunch of rare or semi rare japanese cars and assign expected value at whatever they want and CREATE a value profile.

 

Those who dont know will just assume the values of skylines and Cosmos, and 240Z's and subaru 360's that are in the RM, or Mecum, or Gooding Catalog scattered about Ferraris, and Corvettes, and Bugattis are legit, as if those companies say they are worth it, they must be.

 

Collectors will think that the auction companies know something they do not. 

 

I mean they got the money for these cars so the demand was there. I just wonder if the demand is real or if it being created.

 

Am I just rambling, or does this make any sense.

[Z fan]

^^^^^ This site tells a complete different story >>> http://collectorcarpricetracker.com/auctions/make/Datsun/model/240Z/years/1970-1973/   Go figure , on one hand our loved Z seems to be worth significant price tags and the other hand indicates that they are nothing but used cars.

[DatsunZGuy]

This is just another indicator of income inequality’s impact on different markets and how it fuels speculation.  Are these buyers truly enthusiasts or just people with disposable income with a passing fancy?  Part of me is grateful to see Japanese sports cars increase in value.  It is an affirmation to those who held the belief these cars were highly underrated when compared to the monikers from Europe and the US.  However, the dramatic increase in value will prove detrimental and price those with limited income out of the market, not to mention ridiculous prices for restoration parts.      

[grannyknot]

I agree, but every production car has its day as an affordable used car that can be picked up cheaply and worked on. If it is an exceptional car like our Z's eventually it passes out of that category and on to one that is more expensive. How many more unrestored Z's can there still be?

Our Z's have always been cool but soon they'll be cool and pricey, time to get it re-appraised.

This is just another indicator of income inequality’s impact on different markets and how it fuels speculation.  Are these buyers truly enthusiasts or just people with disposable income with a passing fancy?  Part of me is grateful to see Japanese sports cars increase in value.  It is an affirmation to those who held the belief these cars were highly underrated when compared to the monikers from Europe and the US.  However, the dramatic increase in value will prove detrimental and price those with limited income out of the market, not to mention ridiculous prices for restoration parts.      

[Zedyone_kenobi]

See, you guys are on the same page (Not going down the income inequality road)

Its good and it is bad.  I think grannyknot has the right idea.

 

A great car will go up in value.  NO doubt.  I do not really know when and if this trend will catch on or if it will eventually hit our Z's.  But it seems rarity still commands a high price.  Like it always did. Just did not know it would rise up so high!

[Patcon]

One factor to consider is interest rates. The central banks of the world have set interest rates so low (basically zero or even negative) for so long it is hard to park cash anywhere that gives even a modest return with out having it in the stock market. Many people have turned back to antique vehicles and art to park cash to try to realize some kind of return. I am not surprised that we are seeing these kind of numbers given the toppy nature of the stock market these days. A corollary would be to look at what art is bringing at auction these days. Just a thought for what the root cause is. Many of the purchasers are not car people. They are collectors looking for assets that will appreciate.

Charles

[DatsunZGuy]

A great car will go up in value.  NO doubt.  I do not really know when and if this trend will catch on or if it will eventually hit our Z's.  But it seems rarity still commands a high price.  Like it always did. Just did not know it would rise up so high!

 

I believe one of the watershed moments for Japanese sports car market was when a 1967 Toyota 2000GT hit the over million dollar mark at auction.  I understand the Toyota is more rare, but it made the collectors take notice, and to speculate what cars of similar appeal might be under-valued sleepers.

[240Ziggy]

I believe one of the watershed moments for Japanese sports car market was when a 1967 Toyota 2000GT hit the over million dollar mark at auction.  I understand the Toyota is more rare, but it made the collectors take notice, and to speculate what cars of similar appeal might be under-valued sleepers.

 

I wonder if James Bond 007 drove a Datsun 240Z instead of that darn Toyota 2000GT made a difference in value of our Z. We would all be millionaires! (not)

[bartsscooterservice]

I think it will take time, but the value of the 240Z will go up eventually.

 

There in the US they are populair and most people know what a Datsun 240Z is, but here where I live not so many people know the brand and that Datsun is Nissan. So many times when I drive around with the Z and park it somewhere people start looking and asking what the brand is..  I mean everybody knows a Ferrari or a Jaguar when they seem em.. but a 240Z not so many it seems.

 

I remember last time I went on a holiday to the Czech Republic, and during a stop in Germany, a few guys came out of a touring bus and started taking pictures of my 240Z, and said something like " I haven't seen that car in a long time, so cool to finally see one ".

[bartsscooterservice]

Hemmings quotes a maybe good reason:

 

 Car Club Association (www.zcca.org) historian Dan Banks muses on why the wildly popular 240Z became more controversial as it aged: "I have yet to put my finger on it, but [there was] a sense that Japanese cars somehow are not 'real.' They lack a soul. This was an often-heard complaint in the early years--predominantly the 1970s--about Japanese motorcycles, when compared to Harley, Triumph, Ducati, etc."

 

And there may be a deeper, underlying issue that also has kept this Datsun, and most other vintage Japanese cars, from being embraced in the old-car hobby, he explains. "Values are hindered by lingering sentiment in the older collector community that remains anti-Japanese (WWII generation, and sons seeing the decline of the UAW and Detroit through a prism blaming Japan); the history of modifications endemic to Japanese tuners is seen unfavorably by some serious collectors; and a perception that early Japanese mass-market cars were cheap copies of better cars, owned by those who couldn't afford a 'real' car."

[psdenno]

While I can agree with some of the points in the Hemmings article, some don't ring true. Certainly, the Japanese cars aren't perceived as having the "soul" of a vintage British sports car. The long tradition of MG, Triumph, and Jaguar, to name a few, is something the Japanese cars have yet to achieve. As for an anti Japanese car attitude by The WWII generation, it certainly doesn't seem to apply to German cars. Go figure. Perhaps there's more to the equation.

There are so many variables that go into figuring out what makes some cars worth a fortune and some not. Even rarity isn't always a factor. I own two cars, each of which is one of less than 2,000 produced. One is a 1970 German sports car and the other is American made, fiberglass bodied, built in 1963,and factory supercharged. Neither is especially valuable, at least in the "retirement fund" sense.

If only we knew which way the market was going to eventually swing and had the cash to buy in early. In the meanwhile, I just have fun knowing what's in my garage and enjoying them for what they are. Often, the only people who make big money on the cars we enjoy are the ones who fix them or sell the parts to keep them running.

Dennis

[grannyknot]

"They have no soul" ? I remember that from when I was a kid, (the Z came out when I was 10) and even in the 70's we sure it was the Big Three and British Leyland that were pushing that line to the domestic market. Datsun took a big chunk out of their profit in those years.