Tanny, your last sentence hit right on the button.

Having said that, I agree with another of Tanney's comments.

Practically every T.V. newscast shows Saddam in discussion with his entire cabinet.

With all the high tec you septic tanks have at your disposal, why can't you wait until they are all in one place and send a missile up Saddam's back door, thereby taking out the lot of them. That way, we would not only be sparing the lives of countless thousands of civilians who ALWAYS pay the price but also who knows how many of our own servicemen and women.

Nuff said.

Rick.

Please god, protect me from my friends, as for my enemy, I will take care of them...

Fred Caenfusius, beer philosopher ROFL ROFL

Sooo, in 24 hours, the sheik's gonna hit the fan !

But hands up all those who really think the US and my homeland is really going out there to help anyone except themselves ?

If the US wants goverments in their own image it's only to manipulate them commercially as happened since the US/Spanish war when the US started to appreciate the idea of 'colonialism'.

Hey, don't get me wrong, you want those problems (look at the British and French and Belgians and Russians) go ahead but don't take me for an idiot. I hate hypocrisy - be honest about your reasons and assume the consequences because it's us that will assume them again ! Fuel prices have already gone up here and I won't be able to enjoy my Z when she's back on the road and you guys with cheap fuel will !

If the consequences were that your fuel would leap up in price to 6 dollars a gallon, there'd be a lot of hard thinking !

There is a rumour over here in Europe that the US has oil reserves for another 200 years which is untapped for when the rest of the worlds' reserves are finished ! To be able to make the most of those world reserves and control pricing, you have to control them at source ! Any thoughts !

I love the States, am envious of many things there (especially 'cos I love cars and Zees in particuler). I visited you and was pleasantly surprised by the people !

It scares the s**t outa me that leaders of more than one country can stage a war in the 21st century !

Caen: I loved the video Clip! Very Funny, and quite possibly has a lot of truth in it. Thanks for sharing it!

Sean:

I agree with you on a lot of your points, but while we do have some reserves of oil stashed for "national emergencies" they are nowhere near 200 years worth. I'd be surprised if they could last for 2 years. The cubic volumn of storage necessary to store oil to last any length of time at modern consumption levels is tremendous. 200 years would be impossible to store!

I too feel that the main reason GW Bush wants to attack is OIL. It is not because Saddam is a threat to the US. Saddam is a threat, but a minor one at this time. Now having said that, my personal opinion is that the people of Iraq would be better off without Saddam Hussain in power, but I do not think that the US should remove him. That is a job for a truely international force with the full support of the United Nations.

On the other hand, North Korea is a MAJOR threat since they are far closer to posessing Nuclear weapons, and already posesses a delivery system that can reach the US shores. Yet, nobody is even close to considering steps to remove the government of Korea. Hypocritics!

Sadly, it looks like young men, and innocent civilians are going to die soon.

Carl,

You reassure me - sometimes I get the feeling a lot of Americans are 'brainwashed' just as I feel a lot of Brits are patronised as 'they don't need to know the facts, they'd only worry!'.

I referred to untapped (still under the ground reserves) of oil !

Perhaps a rumour or a nicely guarded secret from the rest of us ??? Bush is an oil man no ?

And you're right about Korea who owe us in the west nothing at all after the 50s' ! Everything's gone quiet on that stage !

We were better off without Thatcher in the 80s' but I never saw the UN or US rushing to purge us of that plague - the UK's is worse off now for her influence ! And don't tell me that the Falklands/Malvinas Islands war was uss saving the sheep from the junta ! Two reasons - one, a forthcoming elcetion and patriotism (and winning) are sure winners for votes, secondly, there are vast untouched and disputed reserves of minerals in the Antarctic and without some sovereign territory there, the UKs' claim is non-existant !

I love history and what I can learn from it and how to apply those lessons to today and tomorow - shame those who can alter our peaceful lives ignore those lessons !

I am 100% of French blood and I am dam prowd to be an AMERICAN ! My father fought in france in WW 1 two brothers were at . Normandy one is still there. All I can say is that NO MORE, they have shown us there back side for the last time . With frends like this I dont need any enemies. They couldent or wouldent recognise Hitler for what he was and they are doing the same damn thing again, they just dont want to see the picture!

Since I started this I'll chime in and get on my soapbox, then I'll duck and cover

Saddam is a huge threat to everyone. Not because he has "weapons of mass destruction" but because of what he supports and what he allows to happen in his country. The training of individuals that are brainwashed into committing acts such as suicide bombing places not only on this side of the pond but all over the world is in my opinion much worse than a little Korean man that everybody is watching. We already have the ability to fight any kind of nuclear weapon that North Korea could afford and I'm sure they will be taken care of in due time.

Yes war does cause undue casualties, but so do acts of terrorism....... in much worse ways. And yes "Dubya" is an oil man but thank the good Lord he has bigger balls than our last President.

Sean.... I think the "reserves" you are speaking of are the amounts of oil off our shores and in Alaska that the environmentalist wacko's wont let us drill for........

I'm getting off my soapbox now so I don't offend any more people than I already have. Just remember we all have our own opinions.

Originally posted by Sean Dezart

I referred to untapped (still under the ground reserves) of oil !

Perhaps a rumour or a nicely guarded secret from the rest of us ??? Bush is an oil man no ?

There's plenty of oil in a lot of places. The question is one of economics. It's less expensive to go after oil that that is readily available. It's expensive to pump oil out of an old well in Texas that's almost dry. In the middle east it literally flows out of the ground. That being said, the following are the top 3 countries from which the US imported petroleum for this past January (thousands of barrels per day):

CANADA 2,235

SAUDI ARABIA 1,858

MEXICO 1,621

That's right, we get more oil from Canada than Saudi Arabia and almost as much from Mexico. Recent labor troubles in Venezuela have contributed to the increase in prices lately, not just concerns over Iraq.

As far as reserves go, the US currently has about 600 million barrels stored in salt caverns along the coast of Texas and Louisiana. That represents 53 days of current demand.

While we do have untapped oil in the ground (for instance, in Alaska) there is a lot of pressure from environmentalists to prevent going after it.

My father was in the US Marines during WW2 and fought and earned a Purple Heart (wounded) at Guadalcanal (an island in the Pacific Ocean, for you that don't know). I served the US Naval Air during the Viet Nam "conflict", though (thankfully) I never had to set foot in the country. (Aircraft Carriers and Airplanes are a wonderful resource!)

It isn't just France that isn't supporting the US on the decision to wage war in Iraq. There are many other countries who oppose this action. Just look at the "supporters" who Bush met with today in the Azores, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar and Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Durao Barroso. Real heavyweights in the world? A broad coalition? !!!!!! Give Me a Break, Please!

Saddam is an a$$hole who is providing a convenient (weak) excuse for Bush to go after the 2nd largest reserves of oil in the world. Bush is working for the benefit of his families oil rich friends, just as he did during the natural gas "energy crisis" of two years ago.

Saddam is not an "immediate threat", North Korea is far closer to being an "immediate threat" to the US. Saddam is evil, and should not be taken lightly, but he isn't the "baddest boy on the block", and the US isn't the world's Police Force.

Don't let your patriotism blind you to reality. Keep your eyes and ears open. Use your brain to logically process the information it can receive. There are many reasons for government leaders of all countries to tell "less than the truth".

Carl

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Sean: Our storage of oil for "national emergencies" is also underground in natural formations called "Salt Domes", stable geologic formations, where we have pumped some oil to store , long term. Untapped natural resources are a different thing. We do have some oil fields that are not pumped for ecological reasons, and some others where the volumn of oil remaining is so depleted that extracting the remaining oil is (at current oil prices) prohibitively expensive. But 200 years worth of oil is a hell of a lot of oil. I can't believe that the leaders of our government are competent enough to keep a secret THAT large!

(Note: MikeW posted while I was composing this post)

Carl,

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. But while I'm here I'm going to take a cheap shot...Your State citizens re-elected the man responsible for the energy crisis you guys had. IMHO

Take it tongue in cheek, because thats the way I meant it.

As far as Grey Davis is concerned, he doesn't do ANYTHING if there's not something in it for HIM! I wouldn't be surprised if the state energy secretary, the one who doesn't have a clue about energy, was appointed by Davis so she wouldn't know what he was up to with the so-called 'energy shortage'. I'm VERY proud to say I didn't vote for him in either election.

Speaking of self interest, from what has been reported in the media (Fox News Network), France, Germany, and Russia have major 'oil' contracts with Iraq (pending and future) that will be in jepardy if Saddam is taken out.

The US's interest is, by being the only super power left in the world, one of enforcing the 'elimination of weapons of mass destruction' that was established in 1991. Slimebag Clinton wouldn't enforce it, so now it's up to Dubbya to go in and take out the major contributor to civilian slaughter in the middle east. It'll be interesting to see who has been breaking the sanctions imposed on Iraq once we clean house over there!

As for the United Nations. What a joke! Ineptitude at it's finest. We had to go into Bosnia to bail them out. 85% US Military, 15% everyone else. The UN gladly accepts our help & money where it concerns THEM. But when we ask for moral support (votes) to take Mr. Rape/Murder/Steal/Lie/Gas'em, the major players threaten to veto! And we US citizens are subsidizing them by the millions of dollars!

Give me a break.

Originally posted by Arizona240z

Carl,

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. But while I'm here I'm going to take a cheap shot...Your State citizens re-elected the man responsible for the energy crisis you guys had. IMHO

Take it tongue in cheek, because thats the way I meant it.

Hi Dwight:

While I do not believe that Gov. Gray Dufus, er Davis "caused" the natural gas crisis, I do believe his inept management of the issue has , and sadly; will continue to cause the people of our state to pay more for our natural gas than we otherwise would have to pay. He made a bad situation worse, and still doesn't admit to the error of his ways.

In my mind the "cause" of that situation was the manipulation of the gas supplies by Enron, Duke Energy, and the other companies who routed supplies away from CA, in spite of adequate supply, contracts, and obvious needs. The federal government didn't help the situation either, especially GWB standing there with the CEO of Enron and spouting crap about market forces, and supply and demand. Since that time documents and verbal testimony has proven what many of us suspected. The market was manipulated. Enron fell like the house of cards that it was when they could no longer sustain the market manipulation that the company was built upon. Suddenly, GWB was silent, and not at all appologetic.

I can assure you that Gov. Dufus, er Davis did not get my vote! Never will either.

We can agree to disagree on any of these subjects, verbal intercourse even in disagreement is healthy. It is the folks who blindly accept what a few "leaders" tell them, without examining the situaton, and cannot even discuss it with an eye to drawing their own conclusions that scare the bleep out of me!

Carl

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(whew, you guys type way faster than me!)

Hi GunnerRob:

If we were to "take" Iraq and "manage" the country for the benefit of the Iraqi's, those oil supply contracts could certainly stay in place. It's only if we start managing the country for "someone else's" benefit that they might be changed.

OK, so let's stop supporting the UN financially. (Actually, I'm in favor of that!) Let them do what they want with the rest of the world. We can tighten our borders to keep out the "suicide terorists" if we chose to do so. What do we gain by being the Worlds COP? Gratitude? Loyalty? Money? Respect? I don't see any of that coming our way, do you?

Why not wait until Saddam is PROVEN to be a MAJOR threat to US, and/or we are ASKED to provide the means to remove him? In one day we could turn Iraq into a lovely "glass bowl" (or parking lot). Choose your metafor. I don't see that we as a country stand to gain anything (except the oil) from the current situation. Saddam didn't do in the World Trade Center, Osama's thugs did it. What, you say guilt by association? The CIA was instrumental in putting Saddam in power in the first place. What have Saddam's boys done to US? Sure, a day may come when they CAN do something, but we do posess the POWER to stop him at anytime that he threatens US.

Carl

Dinner time. Peace ALL! I hope you guys understand that my position is that If any of our (or your, since I don't have any) sons and daughters must die, that it be for a VERY good reason.