Here we go,

France: First,right now your country is taking action, without the approvel of the UN, in the Ivory Coast. This action is to secure there supply of cocco beans. (and they are complaining about us going after oil how?) Second, a lot of people throw the US flack for giving aid to Saddam Insane at the beggining of the 80's. Remind me, who gave Iraq their nuclear reactor that produced weapons grade platonium? Oh thats right it was FRANCE! Third, I never want to hear some asshole from france comment about Vietnam. The only reson we were in there was because you could not hold on to it, and us being your kind friends agreed to keep an eye on South Vietnam. (how many Frenchmen does it take to defend France? No one knows, its never been done.) Forth, france has been supplying Iraq with weapons AFTER the gulf war that the cease fire agreement said were illeagal. Iraq owes france more then 300 MILLION from these purchases. Do you think a new goverment would honor this dept? No.

It is all about money. And France is the one after it.

I come from a military family. My graduation from high school is June 13. I go to basic on June 16th. My father is IN iraq right now. He is a green beret. I think we need to go into iraq and not north korea for a very simple reson. North Korea my be closer then Iraq to getting nukes but who do you think is more likely to use them? And enough of this BS about Saddam not having links to terrorism. He openly admits that he sends 25 thousand dollars to the families of those who do suicide bombings in Israel. Or does this not count because they are "freedom fighters". Last time I checked a person that DELIBERATLY blows up a daycare center killing babies is a murderer. As far as I am concerned Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Hamas, Al Fatah and Saddam can kiss my hairy Jewish arse.

oh yeah, I liked the video. It gave me a good laugh.

Originally posted by Stryder

I think we need to go into iraq and not north korea for a very simple reson. North Korea my be closer then Iraq to getting nukes but who do you think is more likely to use them?

Who would use them? The country that posesses them AND the delivery system to get them HERE! The same one who has been playing tag with our reconnasance aircraft. The same one who we fought in the 50's. Not some pissant shiek with no active reactor to produce plutonium, or a delivery system to get them here.

Originally posted by Stryder

And enough of this BS about Saddam not having links to terrorism. He openly admits that he sends 25 thousand dollars to the families of those who do suicide bombings in Israel.

No one said Saddam isn't a terrorist. My post did say that he doesn't threaten the US currently. My belief is that if Isreal felt that Saddam was a significat threat to them, that they posess the BALLS to go after him themselves. They have done so with other percieved threats. (and rightly so IMO) I feel that it is the responsibility of those that are threatened by a country to deal with it. If they don't have the resources, they need allies to help them. He isn't a threat to US, and we have practically no allies in this US led Jihaad against Saddam.

I sincerely hope that your father remains safe!

Who would use them? The country that posesses them AND the delivery system to get them HERE! The same one who has been playing tag with our reconnasance aircraft. The same one who we fought in the 50's.

North Korea has Weapons of mass destruction as does Iraq. But who has used them. Not North Korea but Saddam. In the last 50 years North Korea has attacked one country. In half that time Saddam has attacked Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel AND his own people. The ONLY reason that the arabs don't want him gone is because they fear Iran more then Iraq. Ya ever hear the saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" this is a example of such.

btw those SAM's that Iraq has FIRED at our aircraft is a little more hostile a act then a North Korean fighter jock "buzzing" a recon plane.

I sincerely hope that your father remains safe!

Thanks.

Oh oh… don’t worry Stryder, I did too flanked a few class in my youth !!! In my case it was the English classes not the history one, too bad for the quality of our debate, I hate those Babel guys… So excuse me if I am not clear enough.

We (you and us) are the nice guys, no doubts about it. What kind of friend would not tell you what he think when it’s really important? You can count on us because we are trustful !!!!

The fact that we loudly honestly say what we think should prove it! And the under-cover facts could to an extend be excused by the final result… Nuke Sadam!

As for Ivory Coast, it should be another thread... We are there because of a previous, in fact very old constitutional Ivorian amendment. Only to do a police job, feel free to go if you want… and to tell the truth we do care more about chocolate than coco… It’s been a few month and I didn’t see any political change… Iraq, yes we did help them, and it’s funny you bring that up. My dad used to work for SNECMA and GE, and he went there a lot of time on mission for GE. Remember that at that time we (you and us) where helping Iraq over Iran, do you? I am not saying, never did say that the Chirac position is correct. But you cannot make statement like what a politician does it what the country wants… so please Say “some French” not the French…

As for the French military past, unfortunately we had more than our share of bloody victories, and I don’t think that any of our enemy ever said that they didn’t fear us! In fact, we have some kind of stinky record with our own Sadam. Napoleon was the biggest butcher Europe ( the world?) ever had, and believe me, at that time nobody would have said that the French weren’t bloody bastards soldiers… (nothing to be proud of…). That’s why we can say don’t do it (been there, done that, and it stink. After all, what he only wanted was to give freedom to the world and installing democracy on the planet, lot of country today still use part of his legal code!!!) I do not want to mention La Fayette here ‘cause the old “I did is first” is only about past not future.

At his point of our discussion, I would like to trough a new twist. Parallel to the economic issue debated above, we have a data you have to understand. France and Germany have a huge active Arabic community. It’s not something you can take lightly.

Imagine that tomorrow, the UN decide eradicate ALL MASS DESTRUCTION WEAPONS, including one used every day on all the planet “DRUG”. And that Europe want to start by South and Central America and say Mexico first, how would the suburbs of California? Texas? Florida… would react ???

I agree with Carl, verbalizing our sentiments is better than standing with the head in sand (you never know who is going to f…k you then!). So again, take your time, look at the facts and you will see that we do agree to 90% of the issue… It’s just the FINAL ISSUE we do not agree on.

I really think that if Bush would have the guts to stop here and now, he would not be seen as coward or not knowing what he wants. THAT would give him a really god edge on the world and would give a new sense to the word “justice”. We DO have to get Sadam out, but I don’t think that a weak Iraq would be the thing to do with Iran around.

More obviously he would be seen as a mature super power boss, really concerned by the wealth of our world. When you are as strong as you are you must be fair.

Nothing wrong about pumping muscle, do you slap your kid every time they do something wrong? No I don’t think so.

In my case raising the voice is enough… I have 4 kids and never had to do more than pumping muscle, that’s called respect I guess… and all my friends think my children are fun to have around!

Well? My thoughts doesn’t weight a lot anyway, but what I really enjoy and want to protect is our ability to discuss thing like that openly with people of good will.

So again we are family… If you go anyway, I wish you the best.

:mad: :sick:

Regardles of who is right and who is wrong, who did or did not do whatever in the PAST, let us concentrate on the here and now and the future.

It is now 2320 hours my local time and in about one and a half hours one of the most important and far reaching decisions will be made. Let us hope that it does not escalate into WW 111.

Spare a thought for the servicemen who are going to carry out the order of invasion.

Let us ensure that THEY are not victimised for carrying out their orders to the best of their ability as Viet Nam Veterans were, and that the Governments take bloody good care of those who are wounded both physically and mentally.

Also, spare a thought for the civilians who are going to be caught up in this mess. Bloody Iraquis some might say, but lets not lose sight of the fact that they ARE PEOPLE. Mothers, Fathers, Sons, Daughters who care for their loved ones as we do. And they BLEED as we do.

Now and in the future we will all need to be on our guard.

Fingers crossed.

Rick.

I propose to close this thread now, nothing more we can do.

I really appreciate this debate and the way you gave me your opinion without any excess... The Z peoples are the best.

I vote for an end to the 1991 cease-fire agreement.

The terms of the cease-fire have been ignored (see Iraq new missile development) and so the globally approved 1991 war will resume.

Not backing up the terms of an armistice agreement lead directly to WWII. At least England won't be fooled again...

Sure hope the actual fighing in minimal.

I agree with Caen Fred. One of the great things about the West is freedom of speech. While I do not agree with everyone here I do respect your opinion, however miss guided it may be. I leave now with one last thing to say. Debate is great, but only BEFORE the storm that my take place. Once it does begin, if it begins, please support the troops of your country or your allie. Remember that they too have mothers.

I can't believe this - I just spent nearly an hour stolidly tapping out a response and it all got lost - f*** it !

Stryder, I am currently reading 'A Bright Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan, a Pulitzer prize winner and written some time ago - I suggest you read it. Having siad that, I'm with you my friend but I still hope we are big enough to walk away from this one. I hope also for you and your family that your father returns safely.

Carl, I'd consider it a privelidge to sup a beer with you one evening and discuss no matter what but always with an eye on the big picture.

Beandip, I'm English, living in France having lived around and met people from many countries and be careful with your history; Hitler was democratically voted in ! Underestimated by the opposing political parties and acquiesed by the other nations leaders at a time when the US pursued a policy of not throwing American lives away a second time to save the Old World.

And I don't want to hear any more about terrorism when the IRA was mostly financed from the US and hailed as freedom fighters. I lived with the threat of walking past trashcan bombs and the windows of my apartment shook when the large lorry bomb went of in the financial district of London!

I could understand their rage and frustration - they only started targeting mainland Britain when a law was passed limiting Catholic families to one vote contrary to Protestants having one person one vote !

When you can't change your future democratically what choice do you make ?

Ho Chi Minh appealed to the League Of Nations created by W Wilson to aid his people rid themselves of French colonialism. When that appeal was ignored, he turned to the only political voice speaking against colonial rule - communism !

Stay safe my friends wherever you are but beware, be very aware !