Back to the original subject 1 Bravo 6

I think we could fill up BeanDip with half a dozen Four X as suggested following it down with a nice unwooded chardonnay from Margaret River in West Aust.:stupid:

Naturally this would all take place up in the hinterland around a nice cosy fire - say the Noosa Hill Climb in November.:classic:

Hopefully I have got the subject back on track and away from those long tedious emails that seem to have a lot of passion in them:ermm:

:sick: :sick: :sick:

Hey Biker,

About the only thing I would add to your fantasy scenario would be the subject of Mikes post BOOBS.

Every now and then I take a trip back there just so I can watch that T shirt go up and down.

Now THAT IS what we need MORE of.

Rick.

Originally posted by biker

Hopefully I have got the subject back on track and away from those long tedious emails that seem to have a lot of passion in them:ermm:

I think you guys have confused this thread with another. This one began with a parody of world leaders espousing views about the Iraq situation. "The those long tedious emails that seem to have a lot of passion in them" are simply our discussion of the same topic.

There is room for another thread if you wish to start one.

Carl, you are my hero - I'd stop now if I thought I was being tedious !

Dwight - I apologise - smoke what you want, I have in the past, probably even more so than Bush and his youthful indiscretions !

My father in law died from smoking, I have a friend whose wife is pregnant and smokes and now my neighbours' girlfriend is also pregnant and smokes - it just got to me and I took it out on you !

I didn't make the point clear enough (it was late) : the money and lives being spent on this war (and Vietnam for that matter) would be better spent helping your own countries' people. EG; how much do you pay in health insurance ?

Here, practically everything is 100 per cent reimboursed via a combination of the social security and ones' mutuelle - a kind of private health insurance. Mine costs me 13 dollars per month. And this country believes in preventative medecine, every two or three years, each person is invited for a free, complete health check and they even pay ones' travel expenses !

This is where 'your' (everyones') money should be going. Be a little selfish and demand that your government spends it on you !

"Most people accept that these accidents are unfortunate and unavoidable" - like the civilian airliner shot down during the last war in '91 ? You treat the recent 20 odd deaths as unavoidable ?

I'm speechless !

Saddam is not the only dictator who has sponsored terrorism and put a price on peoples' heads - Gaddafi, Ayatollah Khomeni and I repeat, Saudi Arabia do not have clean hands either but are more discreet !

So, what's keeping us from going in and liberating these people also ?

I believe the French were not the only ones to sell weapons to Iraq, how are we gonna punish the Russians now ?

Is the US taking credit for breaking down the Berlin Wall ? The 'war mongering' (sarcasm Rolf) Germans did that themselves which was long overdue once the centralised Soviet control of East Germany slackened off and the ordinary people voted out the communist party !

"We get a minimal amount of our oil from there, it isn't worth it for the oil." - that's gonna change !

And the comparison of US soldiers and others was in the type of fighting we are seeing now in Iraq - not quite the same as pushing a button on a launch control !

I accept and appreciate that you don't care if anyone likes you or your country, I believe you wrote yesterday about preferring other countries to fear you than liking you ? If so, are you aware Heydrich said the same in the late 30s ?

For what it's worth, I like you - you say what you think and if I don't agree, I do respect that !

Imaging walking down the street and seeing an adult beating the tar out of a defenseless child. Don't you have a moral obligation to stop him?

---------------------

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight; nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety; is a miserable creature who has no chance of ever being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of bettern men than himself."

Originally posted by hmsports

"War is a horrible thing. But not the most horrible. The degraded and decayed state of man that thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight is a miserable creature. And he can never be free. Unless made so and kept so by greater men than himself."

I think that is what we are discussing. Whether or not this fight is one worth the cost to the people doing the fighting. We, the USA, Brits, and the Aussie's are already free. It is the Iraqi's who will become "free", yet do not seem very interested in waging a battle to achieve that freedom.

What I wonder is, if we are fighting the oppression of the Iraqi people by Saddam as some people claim, why didn't we (US, Brits, Aussies) intercede when the Tutisi's and the Hutu's were slaughtering each other a few years back? Were their lives worth any less than those of the Kurds, and other Iraqi people? Or was there some other thing to be gained in this fight that wasn't available in Rawanda?

Black Gold?

Texas Tea?

Contracts to Rebuild?

Our intervention in stopping atrocites, seems to be related to what WE can gain rather than the actual stoppage of carnage being perpetrated on innocents.

My apolgies Carl

You are right that we can use another thread to air our thoughts on other subjects. No one is twisting my arm to read this thread or reply to it.

But while I am here, I thought I may as well have my 2 bobs worth.

As a country, Australia are very passionate about doing the right thing but also to be seen as doing the right thing.

We are also a very tolerant nation when it comes to a lot of things. We like to think that all are welcome here as long as they leave their indifferences and problems where they come from. An old saying here is Oz is don't discuss politics or religion when you are having a quiet beer with your mates!

As a nation we do however of late beleive that we are no longer a small fish in a big pond and are speaking out against these injustices. In the past we beleived that we had to have US approval or alternatively answer the call from the mother land (UK). This is no longer the case.

We proved in East Timor that we are willing to take on issues in our region to resolve injustices. However, it did take us 25 years to do something as it was in our national interest at the time not to do anything.

We also recognise that we are also part of the world community that has to protect the weaker nations from oppression.

I hope you around the world are not seeing the protests happening in Oz against the Iraq war. Latest opinion polls reveal that a majority of Aussie people support the need to be there. Maybe the fact that the Iraqi's are firing the Scuds that they don't have at the troops may have changed some minds.

Speaking of the Hutu's this is one of the reasons that the UN gets under my skin. The UN stopped short of the border or procrastinated before anything was done to save these people. It also happened in Somalia, Congo, Rhodesia, Lebanon, etc, etc over the last 40 years. The UN has only intervened in 3 conflicts in its history. Yet we still have numerous wars/conflicts and millions of dead people.

I have lost a number of relatives to wars in the past and have a son in the Navy now. An old saying is that the last people who want a war is the military as they have to fight them.

Disclaimer: The aforementioned are my thoughts only.

The problem with an oppressed people like the Iraqis is that they fear being raped, tortured or killed for having an opinion other than that of the tyrant running their country... let alone the means to fight.

As far as why now and not before? My Dad's generation (he was a POW in Germany during WWII) and the generation following knew what freedom cost and what it meant to be free. Today, Americans have forgotten. The MTV/Nintendo generation thinks freedom is something they are owed. And much of the rest of Americans have enjoyed it for so long, they take it for granted. It wasn't until we were shaken back into the reality that we can lose that freedom that we began to really take a good look at just how easily it could slip away... and how fortunate we all are.

But even since 9-11, many Americans have already fallen back into a state of complacency. It is horrible to think that we (or any other country) let these types of things go on in the past. I'm just glad we are finally stepping up to the plate to start making the idea of a peaceful 'Global Community' a possibility for future generations.

Oh, yes, I am a Veteran and I am proud of America !

Godspeed to the brave American, UK and Australian soldiers standing up for humanity.

:classic:

It's nice to have a couple of people on this side of the fence!

It does come to mind that I haven't mentioned that I'm glad we don't all share the same opinion. It would be a scary world if we did. I'm also glad we are comfortable in sharing those opinions. :classic:

hmsports, biker, 1 bravo 6, Arizona240, Sean Desart, Caen Fred, tanny, beandip, MikeW, GunnerRob, Stryder, and all the rest of you that are or have participated in the thread:

As much as I wish that everyone could reach agreement on the causes, justification, legitimacy, and value of fighting this war, really; It isn't going to happen. We have exposed each other to our own views, and opinions for over 10 days now. I'm glad that we have done so. I still feel as you all know that I do, and I believe that most of you also still feel the same way that you did on day #1. That is OK. None of us knows for sure that we are "more correct" than anyone else. Time alone will tell us the answer.

Hopefully we have all been enlightened to varying degrees, and at a minimum understand a bit more of where the others are coming from in their differing views. I enjoy these types of discussions more than you all can know. Everyone who wishes to participate has the chance to get their opinion out here without being interupted, or shouted down. We can all re-read the posts to understand each other to the best of our abilities. It's great.

Thanks to all of you for your participation. I'm going to TRY to kick back and get back to posting on Z subjects, and let this one go. Not sure how sucessful I will be, but that shouldn't stop you all from continuing to discuss it if you wish.

I support the men and women of all nations that are putting themselves in harms way, and wish for a quick end to the bloodshed. For all of our sake. Thanks guys, & Peace to ALL!

Carl

Just a quick opinion...

Indifference is what is killing the world...I am one of the Nintendo/MTV generation (though I don't own a Nintendo nor do I watch MTV, but anyway...)...I am so sick of stupid f#$*ing peace protesters!!! Get your facts straight!!! Bloody hippies, fight for something good, don't let evil endure!! I couldn't give a fat rats arse about petrol prices, if someone over there is gonna live a better life cos I'll be paying 20c more a litre for a year, I could care less!! Doesn't anyone care anymore? All that these peace protesters want is no war, but what about the Iraqis who live in fear, poverty and doubt everyday! Think for one second you selfish idiots about what you are protesting against!!! This war isn't about oil, and post as you may back to me, but give me some alternative to war in order to help the Iraqi ppl of Saddam and his lunatic son Uday!! And don't tell me assassination, cause it didn't work before, and it won't now! This war has been going on for 12 years in one way or another, and I wish that ppl would read up on things before they protest/voice an opinion! Granted, I don't have a PHd in the history of this entire conflict, but Christ, get with the program.

I'll only ask 2 questions to all those who protest against war;

1 What is the other option to get Saddam out of power? (one more poke at a diplomacy answer and I'll throw up!)...

2 If you think this war is about oil, then explain why the oil imported to America from Iraq is less than a 1/5th of their total consumption? (or somesuch figure)...

I've never been this pissed at ppl or so aggressive about my opinion, but damn!!

Cheers ppl!!!

PS I heard one protester say that Saddam was better than Bush, Howard and Blair...well let me ask you this question: Would they gas an entire village of ppl for disagreeing with them?

Originally posted by Leeroy

Just a quick opinion...

2 If you think this war is about oil, then explain why the oil imported to America from Iraq is less than a 1/5th of their total consumption? (or somesuch figure)...

Talk to us about how much oil the US gets from Iraq 1 year after the war is over. The story will be much different my friend!

If the Iraqi people will be so much better off without Saddam (I've no doubt that they will be) why aren't more of his subjects joining the "liberating forces" to help oust him? We are being shot at from the front and the rear! I'll tell you why: As much as they may hate Saddam for the things his regime does to them, they also hate us for sticking our nose in their country.

Call me an ostrich, but I care more about the people in my own country who could certainly benefit from the $75 Billion that Bush wants to wizz away halfway around the world.

If you would like to contribute, I'm sure he'll cash your check!