Cam Wear?

[Chickenman]

My guess is that if a new camshaft is destroyed on start up, it's probably more from a lack of lubrication flow than the type of oil. I've never had a problem with camshaft break in, but I make sure I fill the oil pump with oil before installation to insure it's primed.....also coat lobes and rockers with heavy zinc break in lube. If Isky recommends VR1, I'm going to use it.......may not make a difference, but I don't want to find out that it does.

Yes... a lot of Bike guys like the Rotella T6 5w-40 full synthetic as well. As a bike owner you probably know how hard air cooled bikes are on engine oils. T6 has a great reputation for maintaining HTHS properties under adverse conditions. Ford Power Stroke engines also beat the living Snot out of engines... and T6 is one of the few oils that maintains it's viscosity with high milage. Consistently proven by independent lab results such as Black stone labs.

 

Edit: The VW/Audi 1.8T Turbo engines are also very hard on engine oils. The Rotella T6 5w-40 excels again in these engines. It really is a pretty damned good oil.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Chickenman

[Zed Head]

Not trying to argue with you..but you're trying to re-invent the wheel. 

You're just not seeing the point.  The "Critical Break-In Process" that the cam guys talk about is not the same as what's needed for use after break-in.  I'm not re-inventing anything, I'm questioning unsupported dogma.

 

As far as proven facts, I'd have to see some facts.  Not just talk about some other "expert's" opinion.  What a lot of other guys, or other engine builders or other people in general do, is just other stuff..  

[2sixTZombii]

Alright I have a question on this topic. While doing valve seals on my N42, one of the rockers scurried away to live a new life where I can't find it. I have my L26 sitting in the corner with 12 rockers still attached. Thinking I couldn't trade out rockers I planned to swap the L26 C cam and all its rockers so they would match. Are you guys saying That I could take one rocker off the L26/E88 to replace the one that ran away from my N42 head? Saving the hassle of pulling the cam from my old motor. I thought It might be a worthwhile swap anyways as the C cam is higher duration, but I doubt its enough that I'd even notice, and this would be simpler. Also if its OK to replace and reuse rockers, does that mean I could have a mild regrind done on my other cam and install it without new rockers?

[Chickenman]

You're just not seeing the point.  The "Critical Break-In Process" that the cam guys talk about is not the same as what's needed for use after break-in.  I'm not re-inventing anything, I'm questioning unsupported dogma.

 

As far as proven facts, I'd have to see some facts.  Not just talk about some other "expert's" opinion.  What a lot of other guys, or other engine builders or other people in general do, is just other stuff..  

No I am seeing the point. You are not understanding the importance of adequate ZDDP levels in regular daily driving of older motors with Flat Tappet cams. You need to do more research

 

It's not unsupported Dogma.  There are hundreds of SAE papers  written on this issue alone. Technical articles in " real " magazines such as Race Car Engineering, Race Tech etc. I've been personally aware of this issue for over 10 years and so have all my friends in the Racing community. All the information is out there... just start looking it up. SAE sites are one of the best. It is common and proven knowledge to those who have investigated enough. I'm sure once you really start doing a bit more Research you will be convinced by the overwhelming support of Data. Still..there are some people who believe that the Moon landings were all a hoax. I don't think you're one of those

 

Regarding JGR. Did you actually look at some of the links I provided? Particularly the one that explained why you need adequate levels of ZDDP in older engines. And how higher levels of detergents can actually destroy the boundary layers of Zinc/Phosphorus  as the miles add up. And this is only one example. As I explained, I chose JGR because it is a reputable site and explains the basics. I could provide dozens of more links to SAE papers and engineering article that all state the same things. But I don't have the time for that and frankly don't believe in doing other peoples work for them. look up the " facts " for yourself.

 

You will find this repeated over and over again in reputable publications and independent testing. It is not some dogma. It is not some Internet Forum BS. It is not unproven. It is a modern FACT and for those who do not understand it,  well...you need to do some more investigation to discover the Truth. With respect,you don't have to believe me... who the heck am I. You don't know me from Adam and I don't know you. But we can ALWAYS learn if we choose to...

 

Edit: I'll provide one more link..then I'm going to bed. This is an link to a PDF article  from Brad Penn Oils on the importance of ZDDP levels in Vintage and HP engines. I'm not going to provide any more... you can't lead a horse to water etc:

 

http://penngrade1.com/CMSFiles/File/July%202011_PG1HP_TECH_LETTER_ZDDP_BRAD_PENN.pdf

Edited April 14, 2015 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

Alright I have a question on this topic. While doing valve seals on my N42, one of the rockers scurried away to live a new life where I can't find it. I have my L26 sitting in the corner with 12 rockers still attached. Thinking I couldn't trade out rockers I planned to swap the L26 C cam and all its rockers so they would match. Are you guys saying That I could take one rocker off the L26/E88 to replace the one that ran away from my N42 head? Saving the hassle of pulling the cam from my old motor. I thought It might be a worthwhile swap anyways as the C cam is higher duration, but I doubt its enough that I'd even notice, and this would be simpler. Also if its OK to replace and reuse rockers, does that mean I could have a mild regrind done on my other cam and install it without new rockers?

I don't think it would be a problem, as I explained in post #17. As long as the rocker is in good shape, L series engines are not as sensitive to rocker matching as a SBC for example.

 

As long as the rockers are in good shape, you can reuse them on new cams. In fact, some Cam grinders will recommend used L series rockers arms over anything else other than New FACTORY Nisan rocker arms. Regrinding can be done poorly and aftermarket rocker arms are usually POS made in China with poor Metallurgy. 

[Chickenman]

OK one more link to an article written in 2006 by Hot Rod magazine. Titled " Why Good Cams go bad " . This was at the start of when domestic Cam grinders started to see a lot of HP cam failures. There are several factors that happened all at once that relate only to Domestic flat tappet engines, but read the section on Motor Oil formulation changes. Those changes are still in effect, and to a greater extent in 2015 than 2006. And it gets worse in 2016 with further reductions in ZDDP to Diesel oils planned.

 

This is a link to a scan of that article:

 

http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/lifters.htm

 

You can also Google " When Good Cams go Bad " or " ZDDP reduction in motor oils " .  Should give you a start to hundreds of hours of " Fun " reading...

 

Edit: Please be aware that the above article was written in 2006 when the problem of ZDDP reduction was just becoming more apparent. Back then there were no " Specialty " oils like we have today. the oil companies are of course laughing all the way to the bank. Now they can over charge for  " designer " oils for " Niche " markets ". Instead of one product line, they can now sell 4 or 5. And Vintage guys and Hot Rodders have lots of money right? ... Oyyyy Vayyyy !!

Edited April 14, 2015 by Chickenman

[Zed Head]

No I am seeing the point. You are not understanding the importance of adequate ZDDP levels in regular daily driving of older motors with Flat Tappet cams. You need to do more research

Reading all of the articles on the internet from people selling zinc additives does not lead to understanding.  You've fallen for the hype.  Sorry, many people do. 

 

Edit - we should stop dumping in grannyknot's thread.  Please start a new one if you want to collect all of the internet articles promoting ZDDP, and racing oils using Pennsylvania crude.  Please don't fill up my other thread either.  Nothing wrong with a good discussion, but each one has a place.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Zed Head

[2sixTZombii]

I don't think it would be a problem, as I explained in post #17. As long as the rocker is in good shape, L series engines are not as sensitive to rocker matching as a SBC for example.

 

As long as the rockers are in good shape, you can reuse them on new cams. In fact, some Cam grinders will recommend used L series rockers arms over anything else other than New FACTORY Nisan rocker arms. Regrinding can be done poorly and aftermarket rocker arms are usually POS made in China with poor Metallurgy.

Thanks that saves me a ton of hassle. I might send the C of to scheider for a regrind eventually then, lt isn't worth nearly 500 (cost Of a Cam kit) to cam my motor N/A when I plan eventually go turbo.

[Chickenman]

Reading all of the articles on the internet from people selling zinc additives does not lead to understanding.  You've fallen for the hype.  Sorry, many people do. 

 

Edit - we should stop dumping in grannyknot's thread.  Please start a new one if you want to collect all of the internet articles promoting ZDDP, and racing oils using Pennsylvania crude.  Please don't fill up my other thread either.  Nothing wrong with a good discussion, but each one has a place.

What kind of nonsense is this Zed Head? I'm not falling for ANY hype and I supplied factual information with links to documentation to other forums and even sites with listings of various oils and there Zinc and Phosphorous contents. Did you even bother to look at those links? Some of them have some ( The VW Vortex thread ) EXTREMELY good technical information in them. None of this is new information...although it does seem to be for you. And then you tell me not to " fill up " ( IE pollute ) your other thread?? WTF??  I wasn't born yesterday ( I'm 61 ) have a lot of useful experience from over 40 years of racing that I have accumulated. I don't mind sharing but don't try and belittle me by trying to cast me as some type of " Fan Boy ".

 

What is wrong with posting with factual information that is used to ASSIST other members? If you want to stick your head in the sand...go right ahead. But don't try and tell me that I can't post just because my opinion and EXPERIENCE differs from yours? That's just being childish and stubborn... Sheesh...

 

Back to technical discussion if other members now wish.

 

Richard

[Zed Head]

It's your tone.  Needs work.  And too much verbiage to make a simple point.  So no, after seeing the tone, then all of the words, I didn't read all of your posts.  I tuned out and moved on.

[Patcon]

I have appreciated chickenman's posts. I suspect he has some experience to offer. Zed that is very dismissive unless you two have met in person...

C

[Zed Head]

Started a new thread!   Good luck grannyknot.

 

http://www.classiczcars.com/topic/51321-internet-expertise-exemplified-by-a-conversation-about-zinc/