Zinc Additives, Cam Shaft Or Rocker Wear, And Mileage - A Poll

[Chickenman]

Here's some ad copy from Comp Cams just to illustrate.  Everything in the ad implies that you only need it for break-in.  "The critical break-in process".  

 

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=CC&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=159

 

It is kind of amusing though that the break-in additive is an "extreme pressure additive".  Like the stuff they put in GL-5 oils.  One of the other lubricant issues that has some "can't hurt" concepts behind it.

Read the following article from Brad Penn Racing on why " Bottled " ZDDP additives may not be good for your motor oil and why ZDDP is not just for " Break-in " of new cams. Similar articles and recommendations from many, many  different

HP oil manufactures and HP cam companies:

 

http://penngrade1.com/CMSFiles/File/July%202011_PG1HP_TECH_LETTER_ZDDP_BRAD_PENN.pdf

[Dr. 240Z]

How did you break in the engine rebuild and was this a new cam, reground cam, or used stock cam?  How many miles before damage and what kind of damage?

 

"Appears" is the operative word.  I'm trying to find out what's really needed.  No offense.  It's in the details somewhere.

 

I saw the guys on Fast 'n' Loud destroy a cam in a rebuilt engine, supposedly because they used cheap oil and a zinc additive.  It was a push rod engine.  They got it rebuilt and used the "special break-in oil with zinc already in it" (Brad Penn?, couldn't tell) and went on their merry way.  The car probably has 10 miles on it by now, and who knows, may have destroyed its cam again.  

 

Anyway, I see three regular oils with no major issues, two "can't hurts", a break-in plus a few oil changes, and a destroyed cam shaft (reason unclear), so far.

 

Not judging or drawing a conclusion just collecting stories.

No offense taken!!  And, in view of subsequent posts (commenting on Castrol GTX, in particular), I'm very interested to read about what oil(s) available today are most suitable for our 40+ year old engines. The bottom line is it appears that, at this time, there is not a definitive product or combination of products for any or all types of driving applications.

 

Here's a thought: Set up a survey with criteria specific to driving patterns, tabulate the responses and post them. Some examples: racing or touring; stock or modified engine, and; seasonal or continuous usage.

 

Zed Head, in answer your questions, please contact 'Blue' as he carried out the procedures and thus has more knowledgeable answers. That said, there were less < 2K miles on the rebuild when cam issues arose, and >3k miles subsequently without any perceptive problems.

 

George

[Zed Head]

Thanks for getting back Dr.  I think that there might too much "lore" in this area to get a good focus on a few combinations of parts and lubes that have high odds of working.  Too many sales pitches, too many magic elixirs, too much confusion (intentional and unintentional).  But it's worth a shot.

 

Any time there's market for a new product, and the science ro technology inthe area is hard to understand, various companies will come up with a solution and market it as long as thy can sell product.  Gasoline atomizers for fuel efficiency, octane boosters, hydrogen generators, fancy spark plugs, etc.

 

In this case, one problem is "zinc".  Zinc is just one element in the chemical compound used to provide lubrication during the initial wear-in of the metals.  There's more than just zinc metal there.  ZDDP stands for zinc diealkyldithiophosphate ( I Googled it!).  Thio means "sulfur".  So the nasty yellow metal killer is in ZDDP.  Besides that, who really knows what zinc is?  (I do, but I took a class or two).

 

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/  (More than just zinc).  Notice that Valvoline implies that zinc is not needed for an old engine,but is happy to supply a product if you want it.  Actually question #4 in the link - 

 

"

 

1. What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?

   Many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in SM motor oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible. This has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern motor oil is not adequate to protect older engines.

2. What solutions does Valvoline offer to the zinc issue?

   Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue:

   1. Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil: Contains 75% higher zinc than SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and street-legal applications. This product will protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 20w50, straight 50, 10w30, straight 30, straight 40, and straight 60.
   2. Longer-Lasting Zinc/Phosphorus: Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the motor oil where it protects the engine instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive across its entire line of passenger car motor oils including SynPower -- the only synthetic oil that offers this additive.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Zed Head

[Zed Head]

Anyway, I'm just hoping to identify a procedure and a set of materials that will give a good break-in of a new cam, but avoid the unecessary spending on magic oils that aren't needed.  Plus the fact that not all zinc additives are alike.  Could be that plain old cheap Rotella 10W-30W is the break-in oil to use for break-in nad maybe for the life of th engine.  But, real numbers are needed, from people who have actually driven and maintained the cars.

[Zed Head]

Last comment, the idea that has to make everyone wonder - if ZDDP is necessary to keep old engines alive, then we should be seeing failures on a regular basis of camshafts and rockers in old high mileage cars with stock camshafts, since the ZDDP is gone and most peole (I think) use plain old oil n their cars..  But we don't.  They're just not failing.  Which is strong evidence that ZDDP is not necessary, once the engine is broken in, or if a stock Nissan factory camshaft is used.

 

So back to the original request, if anyone makes it this far - what oil are you using, how many miles on the engine, have you broken in a new cam or is this an old stocker, etc.

[Diseazd]

Seems to me, that based on each individual's research and experience, and recommendations by those whom we know and trust, each person has their "favorite" oil. I built plenty of "L" series motors in the 70's and didn't pay much attention to oil other than we used non detergent oil to break in a new build (so the rings would seat properly). However, if oil producers were adding ZDDP then, and then were forced to remove it, I think I want that in my oil now (just me). I still think that the most important aspect in breaking in a new valve train is plenty of flow and an oil that clings to pressure points. Make sure that all t's are crossed and i's dotted to make sure that happens. Fill your oil pump with oil before installing it and liberally coat the pressure surfaces with a quality prelube (which most contain zinc supposedly because it clings and coats metal better) and make sure you have oil flow. If you want to use something other than ZDDP additive oil, more power to you.....you may be fine or you may not. Your choice......my choice is VR1.

[AWAUDIO]

I did a lot of research on the ZDDP question after my engine was rebuilt.  From what I gathered from a white paper on oil additives was that 4 oz of Redline ZDDP (not a whole bottle) added at an oil change, provided the necessary chemicals to enrich your oil to 1972 SAE standards.  I use it with Valvoline racing oil (NorCal-no low temp issues).  Usual disclaimers about it trashing cats, etc. etc.  But fine in my Z.  AW

[mgood]

I don't know if this will be of any help.  Here are two pictures from last year.  My car has 50K original miles, original cam and nothing special has ever been done with the oil changes.  Have the oil changed once a year over the last 15 years with regular 10W 40 or 35 not sure.  Last year I did put in some Zink additive in and am going to start regular use of some kind of zink additive.  I usually put 400 to 500 miles on the car each year.

 

 

[Jeff G 78]

My L28 race engine might not see the abuse of stop and go traffic, but it does see 24+ hours straight of race track conditions.  It makes power to 7000 RPM and is only shut down to refill the gas tank every 2 hours.  I run a Web Racing cam and I only run Valvoline VR-1.  The cam looks great after thousands of race miles.  I have torn apart many, many L series engines and quite a few of them have had cam wear even though the rest of the engine looked great.  I can't say if my race engine's cam would wear without the added zinc, but why chance it? 

[73str86]

Chickenman, thanks for sharing. 

 

Zed Head, I wanted to share my limited experience.

 

Rebuilt 2.9L F54/E88, Schneider 270-80F cam kit, includes new (ccw) camshaft, springs, rockers, etc., 10.0:1 compression ratio.

 

My engine builder recommended Valvoline VR-1 10w-30, so that's what I went with. It is not the "Not Street Legal" racing oil. Schneider offers a warranty, but you must use their break-in additive. I called the company and the guy said to change the oil after the first 500 miles.

 

At 500 miles, I did the first oil change. At that time I used the VR-1 10w-30 again, with no additives.

 

I'm now at 1308 miles, overdue for an oil change. The Z is on jack stands for a rear suspension rebuild. I'll stick with the VR-1 until something goes wrong. At around 1000 miles, I checked valve lash and everything was spot on with no adjustment needed. The lobes looked perfect. 

 

I look forward to adding a lot of miles this summer. At least one trip to the local drag strip and hopefully some road course fun..

Edited April 15, 2015 by 73str86

[oranngetang]

However, if oil producers were adding ZDDP then, and then were forced to remove it, I think I want that in my oil now (just me).

I feel the same. Furthermore, my engine builder insisted I run a high Zinc/Phosphorus oil and recommended Penn, should I have any interest in keeping my cam for any period of time.

Found Amazon had a sale on the stuff send ordered 48 quarts for very cheap. So far, so good.

I believe this to be less crucial for a stock valvetrain.

[John Coffey]

Pennziol GT Performance Racing Oil 25W-50.  Highest zinc of any available engine oil at 1,968 PPM.  Our oil analysis reports zinc levels over 2,100 PPM and its all we use in air cooled Porsche engines.

Edited April 15, 2015 by John Coffey