1973 Rebuild

[Zed Head]

You're trying to defend the indefensible.  You said you used a board as your flat surface.  That's your error.  And you haven't shown that you achieved any precision.  You said they were good but didn't show anything.  More detail about the process doesn't mean more accuracy.  And you didn't even recognize the Starrett surface plate.  People get confused on measurement principles all the time.  I still do and I've studied them.  Wanting to be an expert and actually being one aren't the same thing.  Sorry.  Looks like fun, but you're really just a guy with some tools and a nice project.  Let's see how the engine does when it's done.  No need to get defensive, just say "thanks" and carry on.

Not trying to get in a pissing match.  You're writing like you're an established expert but it really seems like you're just working out of Tom Monroe's book.

[Matthew Abate]

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

You're trying to defend the indefensible.  You said you used a board as your flat surface.  That's your error.  And you haven't shown that you achieved any precision.  You said they were good but didn't show anything.  More detail about the process doesn't mean more accuracy.  And you didn't even recognize the Starrett surface plate.  People get confused on measurement principles all the time.  I still do and I've studied them.  Wanting to be an expert and actually being one aren't the same thing.  Sorry.  Looks like fun, but you're really just a guy with some tools and a nice project.  Let's see how the engine does when it's done.  No need to get defensive, just say "thanks" and carry on.

Not trying to get in a pissing match.  You're writing like you're an established expert but it really seems like you're just working out of Tom Monroe's book.

Okay, so the tone of this has taken a pretty sizable turn and I'm going to ask you guys to get it in check. I'm not questioning the substance of what's being said, rather the way it's being said.

• Yes, @Takhli needs to show his work if he's going to make statements about precision, as well as explain how he's verifying that precision.
• Captain Obvious could have been a little less snarky with the surface plate post, so maybe explain yourself instead of crapping on my thread.
• @Zed Head, it doesn't matter how right you might be. If you're going to make comments like that in my thread I'm going to have to call you out when you come off like a prick, whether it's to my builder on anyone else trying to add value to the conversation. I had respect for the advice you've provided both directly to me and generally across this forum, but that post was out of line. Your advice isn't 100% pristine either. We don't know any more about your background that you do ours (expert mechanic, 40 years of experience building high performance domestic engines AS WELL AS 20 MAINTAINING JET F'ING ENGINES AND THE GD STEALTH FIGHTER, working out of a home garage on a modest budget, so excuse our lack of obnoxiously expensive equipment that only belongs in pro shops, all of which was outline early).

If you don't want to start a pissing match, don't.

If it continues I'll have to shut down my thread and stop participating in the forum, which would be a shame.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Matthew Abate

[Zed Head]

I made a point.  I'll stay out now.  Always disappointing  that people can't engage in a simple adult conversation though. Makes me feel alone.  People are so sensitive about their reputations these days, with likes and follows and reputation scores.  Happy happy joy joy only.  No critical thinking allowed (as opposed to criticism - they're not the same thing).  Like my opinion even matters that mcuh.  

We could have had a really interesting side conversation about measurement techniques and their importance to high-quality engine building,. Instead we're talking about a guy's epoxy-coated door work bench, as opposed to a solid granite work surface.  The heart of this thread is about expertise and we had a chance to talk about it.  But it won't happen now.

Your guy will probably get your engine working just fine.  Enjoy it.

[Zed Head]

To be clear - I went in to detail because Takhli writes like he would want to discuss these things.  If you're going to describe how you finessed a a part down to 0.0005" precision you should be happy that there's someone out that can appreciate it.  That's a measurement that will change if you breathe on it.  It's surprising that he wouldn't appreciate the suggestion of granite surface plate.  The proper responsive would have been "I wish I had one of those".  The response that came instead makes one wonder.  

That's what these forums are for.  To discuss these things and learn some new things.  

Alright.  Moving on now.

[Matthew Abate]

I think one can be excused for not owning a $2,000 to $6,000 work surface in their home workshop. We're Datsun owners after all. I also think we can discuss precision and ways to achieve it regardless of the tools used as long as we achieve it, right?

We will show our work from now on, though, because you are correct that if this is going to function as an accurate resource for others it needs as much information as possible.

---

So, I made some more progress on our build choices today by choosing and ordering my camshaft!

We talked to and researched tons of places: Isky, Colt, Delta, Comp Cams, Web, Schneider, etc. etc. etc.

Here are the highlights that led to my decision:

Isky: I found lots of really great information, including a huge history of the firm's background in developing Z cams in the 70s, on the various forums, and was 100% sold on them. Initially Ron was quick to respond so we sent three cam shafts to them for evaluation last fall, and then... nothing. Silence.

They had them for months and we just could not make contact to get the work done nor the grind profile chosen. We finally got through and after trying to move it forward felt like they just didn't want to do the job, so we requested the cams returned. Supposedly they went into the mail today.

So then we looked at the others and I dug around on the forums. After talking to a ton of people about the right numbers for this engine I landed on either the 260 or 280 grinds from Comp Cams. Then I started digging into that and found a LOT of negative feedback in various Datsun and other forums, specifically that the metal is really soft and tends to fragment. Since it seems all of the new billets come from one supplier, this put me back on the regrind path.

In the process of finding this out I had found out about Colt. I called them up and had a weird conversation that was dismissive of my project. I've read that people have had great results but I just didn't get a great vibe, plus the guy's insistence on switching to roadster springs put me off. He might be right, but he just wanted me to take his word for it. I couldn't find enough information about their product to do that, other that it's a solution to get around the coil bind his high-lift causes with factory springs and in-machines heads.

The same day I started talking to Delta and had a great experience. John was always available to talk to me (when their phone system wasn't crashing), answered all of my questions with tons of detail, and even discussed how I might go with other grinders to get what I was after. The fact that he wanted me to have the best grind for my needs whether it was his or not meant a lot, and after looking at his grind against several other ones I was considering I felt that if his numbers are right then I will be in good shape.

The open question is that last bit. The only negative criticism I've seen of Delta (other than other grinders talking trash) is that the numbers don't match what they advertise, possibly due to being based on a 1.6 rocker ration rather than the 1.429 I've seen as spec. This feedback was about 12 years ago, and it seems that they've figure it out since. The feedback I've seen more recently seems to be really positive.

Oh, and they supplied the cam. I didn't have to send one.

So I ordered the 268 grind with .430 lift. I don't have the rest of the specs readily available but I'll post them when I get the cam, provided it is correct and we don't have to adjust anything.

I have good feelings about this. Great service (so far), great price, no mailing cams around, and a profile I feel good about. Now we wait to see how it turns out.

If it isn't 100% awesome, I'll run it to break in the engine and upgrade after the car is done if I'm bored.

[sweatybetty]

5 hours ago, Zed Head said:

 Always disappointing  that people can't engage in a simple adult conversation though. Makes me feel alone.  People are so sensitive about their reputations these days, with likes and follows and reputation scores.  Happy happy joy joy only.  No critical thinking allowed (as opposed to criticism - they're not the same thing).

 

nailed it!  +1

[Matthew Abate]

Please keep posts productive.

[siteunseen]

22 hours ago, Matthew Abate said:

Very bold. I like that orange a lot as well. The thing about the original paint is that I always wish it was a little milder. I see pictures of 432s and Zs in yellow, Mexican Orange, Red, and that weird in-between red-orange all over and I have found that I can't land on which one I like best. All I know is that sometimes when I go into my garage I am not 100% in love with the orange that is in my door jambs and inside the engine bay. My ferret picture of an orange Z is this one of the 432R, which feels much mellower than what is on my car (but it's probably just the lighting):

I think the Anrancio Borealis kind of captures that subdued tone better than other things I've looked at , such as the 2017 Nissan Monarch Orange.

I wonder if this is the arse end of the car in your post?  I believe it is and I tried to match it with mine, minus the $175,000. 

Best pic of mine I could find on my laptop.

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by siteunseen

[Matthew Abate]

3 hours ago, siteunseen said:

I wonder if this is the arse end of the car in your post?  I believe it is and I tried to match it with mine, minus the $175,000. 

Best pic of mine I could find on my laptop.

 

I think the image link of your car broke because I'm not seeing it (although I see it in your signature when I use my laptop), but yes that's the same car.

I stumbled upon that series of photographs when I was looking for a 911 project can and it pretty much convinced me there and then to drop the Porsche hunt and go find a Z. I really wanted one when I was a kid, but somehow I totally forgot until I saw this.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Matthew Abate

[Captain Obvious]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 11:50 AM, Takhli said:

What would you recommend, Captain? 

Takhli, I recommend that you get yourself a small granite surface plate for that kind of work. Haha! I'm no machinist or engine builder, and I have one.   And despite the picture of that beautiful Starrett that you and I would both probably love to have, I'm not suggesting you need to spend big bucks. But I do think seventy dollars would be well spent to purchase a small import.

For $67 plus shipping, here's a 12 x 9 x 2 thick example from MSC. "Shop or Toolroom Grade, 0.0001 Inch Unilateral Tolerance, Includes Certification":
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00150003

That would be large enough to do things like adjust thrust bearings and check main caps for flatness, etc. And according to your claims about your door, it would certified to be at least twenty-five times more accurate.

Matthew, I'm a little reluctant to go into any of the other stuff above because the storm that I ignited seems to have passed and I certainly don't want those clouds to come back. But I wanted to explain that as a fellow Z enthusiast and member of this forum community, my loyalty is to you. With that in mind, I saw a questionable tool being used by someone in your employ for something important to you, and as your ally, I thought it would be a good idea to suggest the correct tool.

It's easier to get good results using the correct equipment in good condition. It's the less common guy who can get the same good results from sub-standard equipment by making up for shortcomings with understanding, expertise, careful technique, and of course... Time.

Based on the workmanship details posted so far, I suspect Takhli actually IS one of those less common guys who has a true understanding of the concepts behind what he is doing and can get the same results from sub-standard equipment. But even with that as a possibility, I just want to make sure you are getting what you're paying for.

It's also potentially future trouble for other people trying to use the same alternative tools without having the understanding and expertise necessary to achieve the desired results. In other words, I don't think the phrase "Hey, take this over to that door over there and make sure it's flat." should become common workmanship instruction in the world of engine building. nor do I expect to find that suggestion in engine building instruction literature.

But the bottom line is that I want you to be happy with what you get, and was just trying to help achieve that end 

[Matthew Abate]

15 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

(snip)

But I wanted to explain that as a fellow Z enthusiast and member of this forum community, my loyalty is to you. 

(Snip)

But the bottom line is that I want you to be happy with what you get, and was just trying to help achieve that end 

 

Thanks for the pro tips Captain! Pistons & rods update coming soon.

[dmorales-bello]

I love a reconciliation !!