To Dream the Impossible Dream (Redwing's Z cars)

[FastWoman]

Hi everyone,

 

Jai (Redwing) is a bit timid about protocols, even though we're a pretty informal bunch.  So I'm taking the liberty of explaining her situation.  She needs a bit of special help from the Z community, starting with a frank assessment of her situation and the formulation of a plan of attack.  She's going to need a lot of parts help from us, but I think she is absolutely worth all the help we give her.  Think, "What would Mr. K do?"

 

We've all already met Jai.  She's 72 years old, lives in Georgia, and has been a die-hard Z'aholic from an early age.  What most of us probably don't know is that she lives on Social Security, and her finances are very, very tight.  As she puts it, she's got about $200 per month to spend on groceries, flea meds for her dog, gasoline, and "whatnot," after paying for all the "have to" items.  And from this budget, she needs to maintain her '76 Z, which she has named Red Bird.  Red Bird seems to be a pretty solid car, but she's got a problem right now that we're trying to figure out.

 

When Jai gets her next Social Security check, she will be able to buy a Factory Service Manual, which will help her enormously.  She cannot deal with an online FSM, because she's working from a tablet.  Once she is able to study the FSM, she should know much better what we're talking about.  The FSM has all sorts of great explanations about how these vehicles work.

 

Hopefully Red Bird has a simple little problem.  I'm guessing it's a fuel pump, but considering Jai's tight budget, the time honored approach of replacing stuff that MIGHT be wrong would not be wise.  We need a solid diagnosis, so that Jai doesn't waste her parts money.

 

I had suggested to Jai that it might be a bit too ambitious to maintain Red Bird with her tight finances, and that she might be better off with cheap transportation (an old beater car) and some cash to put into her first love, her 240Z, which she named Redwing.  It will take quite a bit of work to get Redwing roadworthy.  Jai had initially explored this possibility and was told it would cost $13,000 to $15,000 to restore the car.  But what I explained to Jai is that you don't have to completely restore the car to enjoy it.  You simply have to get her back on the road and perhaps spray her with some cheap paint for a bit of color and shine.  Sure, Redwing will be sort of rough, but she's a proud old girl with 250k miles of history with her owner!  No fancy paint job can measure up to that!

 

I think Jai liked this idea, but she can't bear to part with the 280Z (Red Bird).  So the plan is to get Red Bird running and use that car for transportation, while picking away slowly at the 240 to get her back on the road.  Then when Redwing is roadworthy, Jai can sell Red Bird and recoup her investment.  (She is only allowed one vehicle on the road in order to qualify for Medicaid.)  The sale of Red Bird will then give her operating funds to maintain Redwing and have some reserve for little surprises (automotive or otherwise).

 

I had also suggested a trade-down to a red first generation Miata (cheaper, decades younger, and probably more reliable), and she's not opposed to that, but she wants to try to make her Plan A work -- to hang on to the lovely 280Z (Red Bird) while getting the 240Z (Redwing) back on the road.  And hey, why not?  Can we help her to do this?

 

Her 240 is not too rusty, has a dent or two, looks like hell, and was parked 8 years ago when it needed brake work.  I suggested this might be what is required to get the 240 back on the road:

• Engine:  Probably OK.  Needs to be brought back into service gently.  You can put a big wrench on the crank pulley nut and try turning the crank.  If it turns (isn’t frozen/rusted), then you’re probably in good shape.
• Fluids:  all need to be flushed and changed.  ($100)
• Carburetors: probably need a minor rebuild, just to clean them out.  Maybe $50 in parts.
• Fuel pump:  might or might not work.  However, a fuel pump for a carbureted car is a WHOLE lot cheaper than one for a fuel injection system.
• Brakes: I’m guessing they need a complete overhaul – maybe $600-700 in parts, plus your labor if you feel you’re up to it.
• Clutch master and cylinder might need rebuilding (or might not).  Maybe $200?
• Gas tank:  Needs inspection.  Maybe needs cleaning and coating inside.
• Tires: need replacement ($600)
• New ignition parts ($100)
• Chasing electrical gremlins ($100 in misc parts and a bit of patience on your end)
• Water pump (seal might leak) $20
• Coolant hoses (likely rotted) $25
• Belts $25

That all adds up to $1920.

 

I suggested this budget with the idea of having operating funds.  But it can be done cheaper.  For instance, Jai could rebuild some of the brake parts, rather than buying them rebuilt.  Maybe the ignition is good as is -- or maybe just a new set of cables and plugs.  I wonder just how cheaply Jai can get her 240 running and back on the road (safely, of course)?

 

I'm thinking some of us might have a few parts sitting around that we could offer as needed.  She could really use them.

 

Then after Redwing is back on the road and the investment in the 280 has been recouped, perhaps some minor beautification would be in order -- a $500 paint job and a couple of new seats.

 

Anyway, I've started this thread to facilitate our brainstorming with Jai.  Can we help Jai to realize her dream of getting her Redwing back on the road -- on an extraordinarily slim budget?

 

Edited July 1, 2015 by FastWoman

[psdenno]

I see two solutions. The movie happy ending solution is that a helpful group of local Z Car do gooders gets together and makes getting her 240Z back on the road a weekend project. The "wake up call" solution is to cut losses, live within the Social Security budget, and get a reliable car. Buying the 40 year old second Z was a bad decision, no matter how good it seemed at the time. Painful as it may be, a time comes to cut losses and move on. I say this as someone who has poured silly money into maintaining my one owner '71 Z mainly because of happy memories driving it. Jai needs to prioritize her needs and determine where fixing two old sports cars fits into the big picture. As described, I don't think they do. But not my decision, only my suggestion.

Dennis

[siteunseen]

I would sale or trade one to fix the other.  Being sorta close to Road Atlanta, there's plenty of Z people up in that area that would buy the 240 or maybe the 280.  The e-bay 280 came from Miami.  Was it driven or transported?  When did it last run right?

 

She could have the carbs rebuilt and put on the 280, that's what most people did when the EFI started causing problems in the mid eighties according to my import mechanic friend.  

[Redwing]

Dennis and siteunseen,

Thank you very much for your input. I need to explain. Once I was told about the $13-15,000 figure for getting Redwing going, I knew that would be impossible for me to do. So I went hunting for another Z that I could afford. I had some $ due to a friend leaving me a partial life insurance payment. I repaired a lot here in my home, as I knew this would never happen again. Then got RedBird.

In Miami, friends knew someone to go check out RedBird before my buying her. They discounted her because the AC does not work. She was driven and passed the check. Then she was shipped here to me, with a stop over in Jacksonville where my friends mechanic went over her in detail, plus removed 2 small rust spots. That was $1500. She got here around Mar. 1. I went in orbit, she was everything I wanted. Drove wonderfully.. I did have to get a new rack & pinion put in as she started eating up her RF brand new tire, and could hardly turn steering wheel at 0-5mph. Then it was determined that the brand new wheels were ruined by whomever, by putting them on using the nuts that came with the original steel wheels. Causing the holes to be chewed up, which made the wheels roll eliptically and ruined them. So, a set of new wheels and one new tire was purchased. Then, the mechanic showed me that the bushings were crumbling, a box full were purchased and she is running with red bushings front and rear. Great, but those repairs, plus labor, shipping, and paying mechanic in Jacksonville, totally exhausted my $ savings for repairs, etc. I did what I thought was right.

When hot weather arrived, I was horrified when she started the stalling, stopping routine. This started around June 1. As of last week, it got so bad I cannot even get out of the drive, so she now sits snug in her new carport (built just for her) , and I am stranded here at home. I joined this group looking for a way to fix her without turning her over to the mechanic who does NOT normally work on Z's. I know better.

After much reflective thinking and praying, I came to the conclusion that fastwoman told you about. I hate to sell RedBird, in case my resurrection of dear Redwing fails. Then I would be out any $ I would have from selling RedBird, and no Z to drive.

I hope all of you can understand my thinking. I really appreciate the suggestions all of you have given me. You are a great group!

[SteveJ]

Jai, I may be able to come over later this month. Who knows? Maybe I can get Chet to join me.

[Redwing]

Oh God bless you. I know I need all the help I can get.

[rossiz]

i agree with the carb swap to get the 280 running more affordably - while the efi can be made to be quite dependable, there are just so many variables that can go wrong and the diagnostics (though simple by today's standards) are an order of magnitude greater than a set of su's. if you add up the relays, injectors, sensors, afm, harness connections, fuel pump, vacuum system, etc. it's a daunting prospect. a low-pressure fuel pump, a carb re-build kit, some fuel line and a few misc. fittings will get the swap done for less than $100 (minus labor, of course).

 

i have a big hunch that the all-too-common rusty/cruddy gas tank is involved in her situation as well. the low-budget, get-her-running solution is to get a half-dozen in-line filters between tank and fuel pump and keep an eye on them and change 'em out every couple months when they fill up w/crud until she has the $$ to drop the tank and clean it out.

 

this is, of course assuming that the bottom end and valve train are in decent shape (not clattering away and/or burning all sorts of oil). 

[FastWoman]

Just another factor in the equation:  Apparently Redwing is a one-owner Series 1 that Jai would have bought when she was in her mid 20's.  She had to go on the dealer's waiting list to take delivery of her new supercar.  And her dad (now deceased) taught her how to maintain the car!  If that doesn't spell sentimental value, I don't know what does.

 

Sadly, Jai doesn't have the resources to restore Redwing the way she should be restored.  But maybe somebody local could do some bartering.  Maybe there could be some sort of dual ownership thing worked out, so that Jai doesn't have full, unencumbered ownership of the car, but still gets to drive her in rough, but running condition for as long as she continues to drive.  Maybe this could be a restoration project for someone after Jai is finished with her.  Win-win.  And I'm sure Jai would want the car to pass to someone who would restore her to her full, former glory.  I'm just thinking out loud here.  Redwing is quite rough, but her pedigree is solid.

[Hardway]

I have read through this thread multiple times to make sure I understand it.  Just to re-cap below.

 

240z = RedWing

Cost estimate to get back on the road = Approx. $2000

Timeline = Long term, 1 - 2 years depending on ability to raise funds

Labor needed = many hours

Current condition = Has not run in 8 years.

Value = one owner series 1 car.

Work space = back yard, could be pushed under car port after 280z is sold.

 

280z = RedBird

Cost estimate to get back on the road = Unknown

Timeline = Near term, 30 days.

Labor needed = Unknown

Current condition = Not running but complete and maintained. Car ran correctly up until 6/1 and has had other work already done to it.

Value = fuel injected car with regular maintenance.  

Work space = car port

 

As others above have suggested, get the 280z running again first.  It ran well not that long ago and ideally could be brought back to life with some trouble shooting and repair.  Could be something simple but I would not ditch the FI unless absolutely necessary.  Overall it sounds like a nice car and I think would make a better driver than the 240z in a much shorter amount of time.  Get the AC fixed if possible and just drive the 280z.

 

The 240z has a lot more question marks, costs, and time needed.  It could easily spin out of financial control.  If you sold the 280z and sunk all the proceeds in to the 240z there is no guarantee it would be road worthy after $2K was spent on it.  It will need everything plus many weekends of time to tackle all of the known projects.  This does not take in to account what will be discovered as things are taken a part to be rebuilt.

 

I fully understand and appreciate the sentimental value the 240z holds.  However, it will not be back on the road any time soon and really needs to be gone through bumper to bumper.  The money factor is huge at this moment since even at $100/mo she is looking at 20 months just to pay for parts.  Working under just a car port is not ideal and will make each project take longer.  From the way it sounds the 240z needs to be someone elses project car in a garage so it can be secured when it is apart being repaired.  I would say get 280z running, clean up the 240z, take some good pictures, provide an honest description, and sell it.  Series-1 cars, as long as they are complete bring good money.  That way she would have a running classic Z car that is dependable and money in her pocket for future repairs. 

[Redwing]

Hardway,

and all...

You are exactly correct on everything you have said. I might add that RedBird - 280, came to me with her original title showing she had been a one owner car in Arizona. There apparently had been an owner that never registered her, just handed on the title along with her after somehow getting her to Miami. She has a new (to her) hood, apparently different bumper as fastwoman noted, and a few other things that suggest she had been damaged. Oh, she started life as a light silver blue, shown by under carpets and spare tire well, that are all that pale blue. When she was changed to a Redhead, I don't know. But I am happy about it!

As to dear Redwing - 240, your assessment is right on. I would Love to get her in hands that have the ability and $ to get her in great condition again, and will Love her. I really think she is beyond me to do, but rather than see her disintegrate into the dirt, I will make efforts to turn her around myself. Selling her to someone that can and will is my super choice. I will part with her for Loves sake, and for Her. She is complete except for one thing. RedBird 280 had a shift knob that was broken, so I took the knob off Redwing 240 (that I had used driving Redwing her 256,000 miles). And put it onto RedBird 280, so I am still driving with it. Love it! I have high hopes of retrieving the wood steering wheel off Redwing 240, to put on RedBird 280 too. That would be so special for me, having part of my beloved Redwing still with me in the closest way possible!

[jonathanrussell]

Agree with what Hardway wrote. And, I think 2k is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to getting the 240z running safely. I personally wouldn't abandon the FI in the 280.

 

Jai, I am 90% sure I have a printed 76 fsm. I am traveling this week so won't know for sure until I return. PM me your mailing address and if I have one I will send to you.

[Redwing]

God bless you, and thank you for your kindness. Question tho, if the door plate says built in 10/75, is it a 76 model? I bought it as a '76. The photo of the plate is in my gallery.

Also, I just put in my gallery, the photo of the door plate from my 240Z. It says 10/70, so is it a '70 Z?