The news about the attack on Iraq is probably not news to many of us here in the club.

However, I wanted to open up a topic about this just to talk and share opinions. Keep checking back and share links with each other as this event unfolds.

As of right now, the US remains poised for an attack as the 8pm ET (today) deadline approaches.

It appears that the US has support from many countries. But, it still appears that the UN is still not supporting this action.

Last night I caught part of the presentation given by the British Prime Minister Tony Blair. While I sat and watched his strong presentation, a lot of the reasoning behind the attack began to make sense.

There are various opinions about the subject and I would like to open a discussion about it.

I realize that many people will have different opinions on this matter. Please understand that your opinion is welcome and I will do what I can to minimize flame wars. And, if you are strong about a certain position on this matter, please don't flame those who might disagree.

Let's share with each other (links, ideas, etc) and keep talking about it as the event unfolds. All members are encouraged to participate and especially those from outside the US.

We are a global group with many different cultures and races. Keep this in mind when posting your comments. Thanks everyone. Let's talk!!

Hi guys, what a fascinating little thread- Fred you are s $^!# stirrer !

Mike, don't you dare listen to some and close this down - I think wa all need to let off steam do you think we would have been this divided and emotive back in '91 - I think almost everyone was for that 'liberation' !

But some of you really scare me - reread your mails "there is no alternative, we have no choice, he's a second Hitler". Hitlers' only problem for the rest of us was that he wanted livings space ! Since '91 Saddam has been contained and I still say we have no right to interfere even if it is inthe best interests of the native population ! I never heard much back from the wets' complaints against Chinas' human rights record and when are we gonna invade Tibet and re-install the Dalai Lama ? Anyone heard recently from India and Pakistan and their conflict - both of them posess nuclear weapons !

There are a lot of people who aren't for this but want to turn away, not let it trouble their conciences and hope that when the war is over, everything will be alright and people will say, gee, in the end they did the right thing - "hit the snooze button again"

This Pensecola guy is right, you've been targeted by just about everyone since the late seventies. Why ? Because you have been busy trying to ensure the flow of oil but you're new to the region and it's tribal communities. He's right but he draws the wrong conclusions - suppressing one country after another isn't going to stop terrorism, it isn't even going to slow it down.

In order to try and control it you would have to take over every Islamic country that has the natural wealth to support it. And even then, they'll fight back as every aggressee has done against a much stronger militarily force - guerilla tactics and it's modern spin off - terrorism !

Ok, now they're in, I'm for them, of course, because Bush can't back down now - this is going to all out with a real risk of serious escalation because now we must not 'lose'.

But let me paint you a scenario.

With all the muslims crying Jihad (yes, we've heard it all before), it's just possible that these 'tribes' talk together and say, lets band together. How do they hit back, or at least put pressure on the US to withdraw ? Stop the oil, it's been done before. The US digs its' heels in, unbowing to 'terrorism and threats, remember , this is a President with BALLS ! Russia and in particular China are against this action and could easily furnish these (militarily) poor islamic states with the right weapons to hurt US forces now 'protecting' Iran. Iran becomes your second Vietnam in as much as it's a long way away, your own soil is not under attack and they would bleed your forces until home/political pressure insists that the forces be withdrawn.

There are a lot of people here asking what is the point of NATO and even the UN now ?

There is talk of this fractioning Europe but I think it could go the other way with Europe constructing it's own mini NATO as it's own police force to rival that of the US. I believe it would contain even Russion soldiers.

We are gonna taste this action for the next 10 - 15 years. I really don' think the world is gonna be the same again ! If only there had been a legitamae mandate !!!

I'm off to watch the news now, see you later. At least the journalists are having a good time - plenty of prizes available for best war reporter !

Carl, are you aware you are being watched by the CIA and the FBI right now ? You're a brave guy and if ever you get expelled, bring your Z over here and we'll have some fun !

SEAN That is another huge part of the problem. Yes, we are probably on Ashcroft's list now. Dissent is being branded "unpatriotic" and the justice dept has snoops everywhere. The TIPS project that was booted (we hope) was a very bad idea and I think that any of us that use certain key words on the internet are subject to scrutiny. Yes, they could be comming to break down our doors right now. Did I actually say that?

Yeah Zwolley just look at what happened to bushorchimp.com ! That was one of my favorites! Well at least dubyaspeak.com is still up....

I regret missing bushorchimp but thanks for the tip to dudyaspeak. This is the most powerful man in the world??? Truly frightening.

The bushorchimp site won't download the photos - I think they got to it !

On the other hand, Dubya.com is amazing. How did this guy get voted in ? Did he con you all ?

He's like Reagan except dangerous with it and completely unwilling to listen to anyone.

Does he think himslef Julius Caeser or what ? Sorry, I don't mean to slag off your presidency, you could assanate all the British Royal family and I'd probably polish the bullets for you but I just woke up to who this leader of the 'free' world is and now I'm even more scared ! He wants depts. uncrontroled by congress with ilimited, uncontrolled budgets ! This guy wants to stay around for some time and found a dynasty !

Maybe you're shocked about what a limey said about his royal family but I feel they serve no great purpose now except to keep those on high - high, and those down in the $^!# - down ! They represent the national aspiration to climb another rung or three up the ladder, to move up a class until socially accepted by everybody - if it was a board game like Monopoly it would be fun, but it isn't and I can't fogive them for assasinating Diana when she'd found for the first time true love and happiness - with an Arab ! I cried that Sunday morning at how unjust it all was !

I repeat, this action is going to escalate and we're all gonna regret it !

I forgot to ask - ignorant french peasant - why Dubya ?

This is from a recent Wall Street Journal article. el Presidente is proposing to privatise the rebuilding of Iraq (didn't he promise to not get involved with nation building?). Contracts for this work are being put out for bids secretly. Bidders include Kellogg Brown and Root a subsidiary of Halliburton Co. Remember Halliburton and Cheney? Other companies are Bechtel Group Inc, Parsons Corp which has connections with Brown and Root, and Fluor Corp. These companies contributed $2.8 million, more that 2/3 went to Republicans in the last election. In addition, the UN may be involved in rebuilding. Bush plans to give some $ toward this effort but not directly since he doesn't like the UN. So the money is being laundred through another country. Money speaks louder than millions of people around the world who oppose this invasion of Iraq.

"dubya" comes from the "W" in George Walker Bush (W is pronounced "dubya" by Texans hahaha).

Originally posted by Sean Dezart

(most content snipped by Carl) Carl, are you aware you are being watched by the CIA and the FBI right now ? You're a brave guy and if ever you get expelled, bring your Z over here and we'll have some fun !

Ah, so that's what the car parked across the street with two gorillas inside is all about!

I wonder if they like donuts? or maybe a banana in the tail-pipe!

PS: I'm not brave, I just never learned to keep my mouth shut and play other people's game!

I fully support the President and the decision of his Military and intelligence advisers to take this course of action. I am so very glad we have a President that will act and not waste time with countries that are more worried about their economy than protecting their citizens. Furthermore if planes had slammed into high profile targets in Europe or China or Russia the first thing they would of done would have been to wail and cry for US support, both financial and of course Military aid. It always falls to the good old USA to save the day. Case in point, there are some 60,000 American soldiers buried in northern France form two world wars. Saddam is a thug, a mass murderer, and a dictator prepared to do anything to keep himself and his line in power. He has courted many countries over the years in search of nuclear and bio weaponry so that he can influence the world stage, and bully his neighbors. He would have a working French and Italian built nuclear reactor right now if Israel hadn’t blow in up in 1980. A reactor that was supposedly for research purposes, but really built so that the Iraqi’s could produce weapons grade plutonium. Having fought in the first Gulf war, Operation Enduring Freedom and serving now in an anti terrorism unit here in the States, I have seen things, and been exposed to situations that have brought me up close and personal with the type of people that have allied them selves against the United States and it’s allies. Be they religious zealots or otherwise. I make no distinction between Al Qiada and the Iraqi regime, two different ideals and one aim. Both these factions are under the impression that if they bloody the nose of the US, and can get news footage of American casualties on CNN be they Military or Civilian here at home, we will fold like a house of cards. To do nothing now would be absolute madness, unless of course you don’t mind a nuclear weapon exploding in your city.

It’s been told before and I will say it again, how far back do you want to go? Please Dan, how can you take short line like that, saying those things about the poor American soldiers buried in France?

All the French are thankful to the US for your help, but please can you understand that, We, the French citizen have paid too a very huge price for our freedom… I do not say it with regrets, but when all the Britt’s civilian have been killed by German weapons most of the French have been killed by US/Britts bombing operations. Read what happened to a town like Le Havre, or Royan or… Don’t read me wrong, at that time it was the thing to do, but I think a thing like that should ties us together for ever, no? so please look forward, read History books and beware of Politicians. At that time they all died for our freedom.

Will you say in 50 years, than this Iraq operation is an all American affair or will (should) it be seen as a Bush affair? If you say yes, then it’s a POLITICAL affair and being so, I doesn’t need say more, I work in advertising and sell those later like diapers, with marketing!!!

If not, then it’s history, one thing you can study, and hopefully build a better world for our children.

As for the Nuclear plant… do you really think that one can sell a plant like that without any kind of knowledge by the others??????

It was wrong! Was it? When I think of it, I cannot see how we will be able to protect what we have without having to share a bit (read a lot) with the other countries… Iraq and Iran are the perfects examples of peoples having tasted the goods of our civilization for one time without the ability to really join the club… This is where we are wrong, we need to improve on that and to really extend the game to new players, or stop complaining about their act of despair when the goods tap is closed.

So can you tell me how the Bush team is going to finish the Afghan situation, are they still going after **** Laden ? Are they really planning to give real freedom to the peoples of Iraq at the end ? Theses are questions that need answers, and I need your “media” vision to complete my puzzle, I do not relate only to what I see here.

Things going as they do, why play cat and mouse with Sadam when you could play Tiger and mouse? He is supposed to hide in one of his 30 bunker, ok so nuke the 30 bunkers… at one. Why go one after an other? Surely there are enough bombs around …

Take care, Fred

To lighten you on M. Chirac…

No, sorry I have no really crunchy info or storry about him, and all the clips I have are in French, but I am not sure all of you are aware of his last election…

This man doesn’t represent more than 20% of the VOTING French citizens. Our last election was a real defeat for democracy, tones of voting defections, mostly by the Socialists that didn’t show up to the voting both. Ya know, it was a sunny day, warm and nice and it is not that important after all… so at the end of the day.. tada :

Right wing +- 20%

Ultra-right ****ers 17%

Left wing +-16 %.

In our constitution only the best two go on for the next round. In order to stop right there and for ever an extremist derivation of our beloved country, all those stupids weekenders voted like one AGAINST the fascist Le Pen and not for Chirac, see the twist? So this guys represents in facts only 20% of the French, keep that in your mind when you sate cases.

We are a democracy and as one we will let him finish his mandate, but I hope that the French will be more aware of the real need to have a citizen life.