The news about the attack on Iraq is probably not news to many of us here in the club.

However, I wanted to open up a topic about this just to talk and share opinions. Keep checking back and share links with each other as this event unfolds.

As of right now, the US remains poised for an attack as the 8pm ET (today) deadline approaches.

It appears that the US has support from many countries. But, it still appears that the UN is still not supporting this action.

Last night I caught part of the presentation given by the British Prime Minister Tony Blair. While I sat and watched his strong presentation, a lot of the reasoning behind the attack began to make sense.

There are various opinions about the subject and I would like to open a discussion about it.

I realize that many people will have different opinions on this matter. Please understand that your opinion is welcome and I will do what I can to minimize flame wars. And, if you are strong about a certain position on this matter, please don't flame those who might disagree.

Let's share with each other (links, ideas, etc) and keep talking about it as the event unfolds. All members are encouraged to participate and especially those from outside the US.

We are a global group with many different cultures and races. Keep this in mind when posting your comments. Thanks everyone. Let's talk!!

It appears (after being in this a few days now) that the US is listening to the protests against destroying just anyone in Iraq. In my opinion, Bush Jr. is doing an excellent job.... SO FAR.

This war is unlike any other. I am sitting here watching a reporter as he drives into Bagdad in a Hummer while he broadcasts the whole thing using his video-phone. I could imagine what his mobile-phone bill will be when he gets back!!

Anyway, they've got GPS, computer terrain mapping, secure satellite communications, video-phones, missiles that can be shot from 600 miles away.... This isn't war. This is a massive video game.

Can someone please tell these protestors that they aren't doing anything by sitting in downtown Portland? They are creating nothing but madness. I never understood how these people think that this can make a difference. Seems like they start their own war just to debate another war.

Oh well, stepping down. One more thing... be nice to each other in here guys/gals. Remember that we have members from all over the world and your view isn't the only one. Take care not to insult anyone based on your opinions.

-- Mike

Great that reporters are along for the ride this time. Hopefully they will show prominently the human costs of conflict and show as much graphic detail as possible. Show the kid with the leg shot off screaming in its death throws in some sleasy alley. Try to imagine that as your kid. Homo sapiens seems to be fascinated with the glory of war, death, and destruction, so it should make highly popular news. Will be nice to be rid of Saddam though.

Carl - you trying to be Eddie Murphy ?

Mike, would you have moved on the anti vietnam prtestors too ? Hindsight tells us that that war was wrong, not because we lost but because we didn't belong there.

We went in to support a dirty little regime and installed a corrupt family and nothing changed when one general after another took charge !

Dan, what can I say ? 60k US soldiers is a lot but we in Europe counted our dead with 6 zeros !

Read what Fred wrote - the city of Caen was literally wiped off with Allied bombing in order to avoid street fighting and break out of the Falaise pocket.

France declrared war on Germany after Poland was invaded and was occupied as a result. In both world wars thousands of French starved to death (as did the Dutch just after the war) due to untended fields.

Can the US really class those two world wars as TOTAL wars ? Your civilans' life was affected of course but not turned upside down !

Anyway, now we have three helo crashes and British dead as a result, I have to try hard not to be sarcastic now ( these are after all my countrymen) but your helos have a habit of nose diving and don't tell me it was because of the sand. Somebody must have realised that deserts are made of it !

So the score is 1 Iraqi dead and a dozen wounded, 1 helo full of Brits and US, two jet fighters downed and hundreds of Iraqi prisoners.

I just heard that the war budget is at 400 billion dollars - somebody want to correct me ?

What's going to happen whenwe get to the towns and cities/oil complexes where morally we can't bomb them for fear of killing the civvies ? Saddams' betting on us caving in after we lose a large number of casualties ! Of course we won't cave in and the war will drag on and cost a lot more in human suffering, money and economic hardship worldwide.

It was not my intention to disrespect our French members or try to make any suggestion that the United States has sacrificed alone in the World struggle for peace. My reference to the American servicemen buried in France was to highlight my point, that when push comes to shove the US shows up and invariably shoulders the majority of the burden. What upsets me is there seems to be this expectation that whenever there is a crisis in the world the US is expected to clean it up. However when were attacked and our government feels the current course of action is the correct one we are practically alone. In essence the only other countries to show up for the fight were the Brits and Ausie’s.

To be honest I can’t help but feel we’ve been betrayed, perhaps that’s too strong a word but that’s what it feels like.

I think that this war will probably be somewhat of a let down in that it’s not going to have all the fireworks and ceremony of the first conflict. The Republican Guard just doesn’t have the stomach to fight for a regime that is willing to execute it’s own soldiers if they retreat. Of course this war will cost us more than we will ever get back from initiating it, but I believe it’s not about what we will get back but rather ensuring a better future for democracy.

Dan, it make no doubt in my mind that if the Republic of dominic or an other important country would strike you on your main land, we would be right there, fighting to the last coconut just like Lafayette did...

Ahah beware felons, Fred's comin...

But I guess that with a threat like that, you are safe for centurys :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

Hey, talking about Lafayette, have a look. See you cannot say that I will come without apropriate up-to-date high tech...

My high tech weapon

I want to go back to your statement that " all Hitler wanted was land " You make him sound like not such a bad guy. What about the ovens and gass chambers that the christians and Jews were killed in . I have been there and seen them.Hitler wanted to controll the world ! Sadam gassed his own people he has used the same gas on his neighboring countries.Thr longer he is in power the more he is devoluping greater wepens Another thing that has been forgotten here this is the same war that has been going on for the last 12yrs while Sadam was disarming and complying to the UN from Deasert Storm. T HAT was a joke. The Brits and American planes heve been enforcing the no fly zone and have been continually shot at all the while. This is not a new war just continuing to enforce the UN resolution that Iraqi disarm and destroy the bio and gass weopens and long range rockets. This is a 12year old mandate.

Originally posted by Sean Dezart

Mike, would you have moved on the anti vietnam prtestors too ? Hindsight tells us that that war was wrong, not because we lost but because we didn't belong there.

We went in to support a dirty little regime and installed a corrupt family and nothing changed when one general after another took charge !

Yes, I would have been against the protestors for Vietnam as well. At least the violent and stupid protestors. Do they really think they can make a difference by smashing store windows and affecting business?

Moving through the streets in large numbers, holding candles, and making a point is not bad. But, sitting in the street refusing to move, throwing things at the local police, and just being an arse doesn't prove anything.

If anyone protests the war, it should have been done before the war started. NOT when the war is underway.

We need our police force to protect us from terrorism, not protestors. Their time could be spent doing better things.

Originally posted by beandip

I want to go back to your statement that " all Hitler wanted was land " You make him sound like not such a bad guy. What about the ovens and gass chambers that the christians and Jews were killed in . I have been there and seen them.Hitler wanted to controll the world ! Sadam gassed his own people he has used the same gas on his neighboring countries.Thr longer he is in power the more he is devoluping greater wepens Another thing that has been forgotten here this is the same war that has been going on for the last 12yrs while Sadam was disarming and complying to the UN from Deasert Storm. T HAT was a joke.

I not much of a historian, but, hasn't Iraq/Iran/Turkey and the neihboring countries been in conflict since biblical times?

I mean, are we finishing a holy-war that was only recently noticed due to a single regime (sp) of power?

About your comment above, I think Saddam wants to control the world as well. He's just too stupid. His methods are similar to someone bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Humm; I don't know about those peace guys, to an extand I think mike youre right about the use of violence by the one than condamne it. I think Sean point was that without the voice of those peoples, the war could have been a lot longer. I am against this war, but I am not a green peace fan either, it's just that the reason of the strongest isn't always the better.

We will see at the end of this conflict what are the real intentions of the beligerants, if the country really goes back to the peoples of Iraq, then I will be the first to say I was wrong, I am not afraid to say it, it's not always easy but it could be done. But I am afraid it will look like a big chease cake with two unequal slice one big for Mickey and one small for Lord Brett Sinclair.At least those guys will be free of Sadam's blody business.

Please tell me what is going on in Afghanistan today, is it over yet? Who is runing the country and the business? I have no clues here... :cross-eye

Oh and one more thing, it is so nice to exchange ideas, one at the time, with no peoples talking louder than others, every one geting a chance to speak, whoah great, great, great, thank you so much for this site Mike and all ... :love: :love:

Ok, how can i say this again,

OIL, OIL, OIl, OIL, OIl, OIl, OIL!

Pay attention people, if you think Saddam was a threat before all of this started you are mistaken. The only threat he was, was to his own people! The u.s. is "preaching" that they are going in to liberate the Iraqi people, this is a thinly veiled excuse to get the right politicians in place to CONTROL the OIL.

If we (the U.S.) stayed at home and concentrated on protecting our borders, does anyone believe (using the money that will be put into this war) that we could not build a defense system to destroy any kind of weapon headed our way?

Again, I will say, we do not need to be the world's official police force. Nobody is right or wrong here, this country is founded on freedom (speach, etc.).

One more thing, if one more person lies down in front of my Z on a public road, consider them to be a speed bump! These protesters "of peace" are so out of touch with what they are actually doing it is incredible!

Anti-war protesters destroyed the US sec. defense home in Arizona. These people who are against violence ATTACKED the home of Donald Rumsfeld. They broke windows and devestated rooms by breaking furniture and destroying other objects. These people are holding a double standared by being against violence and the war, but at the same time commiting this act of crime.

Turkey, after giving the US the finger is making a land grab at the northern part of Iraq. They state that it is for a "humanitarian perpose". This is quit intresting considering that the north of Iraq is 99.999...% Kurdish. This ethnic group is the same one that the Turks have been persecuting for years. If the French somehow see the US action as a land grab I can't wait to see what they say about this. Then again the Turks are going against what the US, and the world, wants so the French will support it.

I want to go back to your statement that " all Hitler wanted was land " You make him sound like not such a bad guy. What about the ovens and gass chambers that the christians and Jews were killed in . I have been there and seen them.Hitler wanted to controll the world ! Sadam gassed his own people he has used the same gas on his neighboring countries.Thr longer he is in power the more he is devoluping greater wepens Another thing that has been forgotten here this is the same war that has been going on for the last 12yrs while Sadam was disarming and complying to the UN from Deasert Storm. T HAT was a joke.

"all Hitler wanted was land" It is because of idiots like you that the world has people like Saddam. My grandfather has the letters from the camps branned on his arm. I less then 10 family members in the entire WORLD due to that pig. I'll slit my wrist before I don't oppose murders like Saddam, Hitler, and Stalin.

If we (the U.S.) stayed at home and concentrated on protecting our borders, does anyone believe (using the money that will be put into this war) that we could not build a defense system to destroy any kind of weapon headed our way?

I'm not mad when I say this. That kind of a stance leads to things like what happened to the Jews in europe. We took this stance before and it served us well, after all it only took 4 years for the US to retake all of the islands in the pacific. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."