What a Difference a Day Makes with RedBird

[Redwing]

Ok, I see. I'll for sure coast to the side and check it before trying to restart. I'm planning to use the gas down and see if I can force it to happen again. Thanks both of you,

Jai 😇 🚘

BY THE WAY, MY SCREEN CHARGED TO BLUE AND WHITE WITH A DIFFERENT LAYOUT. ANY ONE ELSE? IF NOT CAN I GET THE OLD LOOK BACK? HOW?

FORGET THE SCREEN PROBLEM, I FIXED IT. 😃

Edited December 5, 2015 by Redwing

[gundee]

I know Jai reported on one of the previous occasions she did 

open the hood and the gauge read good pressure.

Ignition?

 

Posted by Jai on November 11th.

"This morning RedBird started great and warmed up with no problem. Drove to the body shop, (story about that below). Leaving there, started and drove to the local flea market. When leaving the flea market she started and then stalled. Jumped out and QUICKLY opened  hood to look at the fuel gauge. It was exactly on 30. Tried to restart her, and she willingly did."

[Mike]

BY THE WAY, MY SCREEN CHARGED TO BLUE AND WHITE WITH A DIFFERENT LAYOUT. ANY ONE ELSE? IF NOT CAN I GET THE OLD LOOK BACK? HOW?

FORGET THE SCREEN PROBLEM, I FIXED IT.

 

We have two themes, one is blue and the other is the graphical color with brown tones.  You can pick the theme at the bottom of your screen.  If you're on mobile, there's another layout.  You can always get back to another theme by scrolling to the bottom and picking the new theme.

[Patcon]

Lumens,

I remember, I still don't believe that ignition has been ruled out. I would just like to see the same test results more than once to be sure. If she tried to start it or turned the key off and on the results are suspect...

[Redwing]

Yesterday when I drove to the mailbox, after warming RB up, I noted the gas gauge was over half a tank easily. Today, warmed her up, got in and before I could press the gas to go, she died. Looked at the gas gauge and it was exactly on half a tank. I have previously noted, that there is a heavy gas odor when starting. Today I opened the hood, and no odor there. But it waifs in the open window when starting. Also, I checked under RB for signs of leaking fuel, since there was quite a drop in the gauge overnight. On the right side, inside the right tire, I found several gravel that I think have gas on them. So, maybe a leak there? Alas, go ahead and smite me, when she died I immediately tried to restart her, messing up the fuel gauge in the engine. Had I been on the road, that wouldn't have happened. I wasn't prepared for this in the carport. Blah!

So, questioning all of you, what do you think? I have listed all the particulars I remember. If I am able to start her, do you think I have a problem with a leak? Could it cause me a worse problem, like a fire under certain circumstances? What is my next step?

I need to be able to drive RB to Chattanooga on Thursday, probably near 150 mile round trip. My Deanna has a free treatment from an acupuncture vet there, that I have used before. It can only happen on that day, so I have to get her there. Deanna at this time is having good days and bad days. I guess this is typical of kidney disease.

I thank each of you for the information you share with me. This is such a special group of helpful folks, I am so grateful to be among you.

[Mark Maras]

Jai

 Has RB, at any time recently, ran good, or at all, below the half tank level? Also, is this the first time you've noticed the fuel loss?

 IMO the possibility of fire is very low. The fuel loss appears to be on the right side, most tank connections are on that side, hot exhaust is on the left. That said, don't park the car in a closed garage with no air circulation. 

[Zed Head]

warmed her up,

 

got in 

 

before I could press the gas to go, she died.

Seems like there's a clue in these statements.  

 

Engine is cold, driver gets in and starts engine, starts up normally(?), engine is running at normal AAR-controlled high idle RPM, (tachometer still broken so sound-based), driver gets out, engine runs for a certain amount of time (how long?), maybe to a certain engine temperature (how hot?), door is opened, driver gets back in, [undefined things happen (clutch pedal pressed (?), transmission put in to gear (?), clutch released (?)], engine dies.  Engine is restarted and runs fine ? (not clear).

 

Add some detail to "before I could press the gas to go" and what happens after it died.  Might be something there.

 

Sorry to be so pedantic, just wanted to detail my point.

[Redwing]

Jai

 Has RB, at any time recently, ran good, or at all, below the half tank level? Also, is this the first time you've noticed the fuel loss?

 IMO the possibility of fire is very low. The fuel loss appears to be on the right side, most tank connections are on that side, hot exhaust is on the left. That said, don't park the car in a closed garage with no air circulation.

More information...

No Mark, this is the first RB has been close to mid tank. I have been keeping her full or nearly, since I started thinking that might be part of her starting problem. She has run SUPER until this morning. So much so, I had not even thought of a possibility of her stumbling. Yes, this is the first time I actually have found stones with fuel on them. It makes them dark, and in a small circumference area. Just a little over an inch and a quarter wide. Easy to miss.

Two things to say about earlier.

First, about the gravel I got out from under, at the right side inner wheel, I had my son sniff it just now. He said definitely they are permeated with fuel. I was going to see if they would flare up with a paper leading to them, on fire. Son thought better when I asked if he had matches. So apparently there is a leak there of some amount.

Second, three and a half hours after she would not restart, she started. I looked at the fuel gauge, and it had risen to where it was yesterday. Very strange. While she was running, I let her warm up properly, and then took off to the gas station. She made that trip just fine, it is about 20 miles there. No hiccups. While there, I had brought my gas can and put 4 gallons in, to have here should an instance happen again like today. Yes, I will not let it get old. Snicker.....

That is all that the gremlins tortured me with today. Phew, that was enough. I got very nervous about my trip to Chattanooga next Thurs. I do so much love to drive her, it is the easiest and most enjoyable part of my days. I grin and RB just hums along! We are a great team!

Jai

[Redwing]

Seems like there's a clue in these statements.

Engine is cold, driver gets in and starts engine, starts up normally(?), engine is running at normal AAR-controlled high idle RPM, (tachometer still broken so sound-based), driver gets out, engine runs for a certain amount of time (how long?), maybe to a certain engine temperature (how hot?), door is opened, driver gets back in, [undefined things happen (clutch pedal pressed (?), transmission put in to gear (?), clutch released (?)], engine dies. Engine is restarted and runs fine ? (not clear).

Add some detail to "before I could press the gas to go" and what happens after it died. Might be something there.

Sorry to be so pedantic, just wanted to detail my point.

You are right Zed Head, I did omit those points. Sorry, will try to cover every step now, and in the future. Everything you said above is correct until "certain amount of time warming up".

RB was warmed up for 13 to 17 to 20 minutes. That is about the time I have been warming her up recently.

How hot? I have no way of knowing really, but as you say there is a change in her sound that I have been going by.

NOTE: Not mentioned. Her left window is open, because she locks me out, a malfunction of lock. So have to do that to avoid scrambling for 2nd key.

All is correct as to: door opened, driver gets back in.

Then I: Collect seat belt, put on arm, close door, move seat forward, hook seat belt.

Note: RB had been sitting out of gear, with emergency brake on while warming up.

Now I: Engage clutch, put trans into gear, and that is when she died. Clutch not released, engaging motor to go, and gas pedal not touched.

At that time she refused to restart, and not thinking as I needed to hurry on to church, I attempted to restart her.

Blah! Bad bad me. And no matter the length of time waiting in between times of trying to restart, would not start her. The last time I waited at least or more than 20 min. During which the driver door window was open. No start. Left for 3 1/2 hours, and then she started. Gremlins??? They love to torment me.

That is all the detail I can think of. Hope this is what you were looking for Zed Head.

Thank you for asking for this complete information.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Redwing

[Mark Maras]

I'm not familiar with 280s, so I'm going to ask some dumb questions. The fuel leak. It seems possible that the sender o-ring is leaking. That could account for the loss of fuel down to half tank, If it's not the o-ring tho, it may have lost more fuel if it sat longer. We don't know.

 Jai, Are you able to remove the r. rear wheel and take a look at that side of the tank? You may need to lay on your back with a flash light. Don't rely on the jack alone, not even for a few seconds. Most of the hose connections, as well as the fuel level sending unit, is on that side. If you're able, trace the wet spot forward and then up. At that point you'll be able to see where the fuel is coming from.

 EFI experts. Does tank pressure have anything to do with the fuel injection? My guess is no, but then, I still don't understand why all tanks aren't vented.

 Interesting question about the engine dying when the clutch is pushed in. Is there any noise or an increase or decrease in noise when pushing in the pedal? Or even a vibration in the pedal when pushing it in?

 At what temp. is the AAR-controlled high idle rpm suppose to "turn off" and what usually happens when it does. Is it possible it shut off at the same time Jai got in? Seems possible if she warmed the engine for a while.  

[Redwing]

I FORGOT... When opening the tank cap to put in fuel, there was a huge whoosh of air. Like what I was experiencing during those months of trials while RB was being worked on by the members. That is definitely different from the last 3 times I filled up, when she had a very mild pooh of air.. This is after she finally restarted, on the first try, after the 3+ hours of resting this morning.

Mark... No there was no vibration or sounds at all when I pushed in the clutch just prior to her dying.

I am going to see if my son can help me track the gas leak like you suggest.

Nope, he is not available, I will have to think further on that, pulling the wheel off safely. Hmmm.....

Edited December 13, 2015 by Redwing

[Zed Head]

 there was a huge whoosh of air.

Out or in?  The gas cap should let air in at some low vacuum level so that excess vacuum does not happen.You can see the little valve on the inside of the cap, and pry it up with your finger.  It vents through small holes though and is hard to check for proper operation.

 

The charcoal canister and vent lines should let excess pressure out, again at some low pressure number.

 

On the issue with pressing the clutch, putting in gear, and it dying.  Do you rev the engine beforehand, or just let it idle and go directly to clutch and gear shift lever?  A cold transmission will have thick gear oil and put a load on the engine.  If the idle is low, and the engine idles rich, it might be on the edge of dying and the extra work kills it.  Then the plugs are wet and you have to wait for them to dry.  

 

If you get a chance and can find someone to do it (crawling around under the dash) fixing your tachometer would give a fantastic diagnostic tool.  Not knowing your idle speed and being unable to see spark by the tachometer action is really leaving you in the dark/dusk.  OR, if you have one of those old-timey tune-up dwell tools with a tachometer function, or a meter with a tachometer function, or a meter with a Hertz function, you could see spark activity that way also.  also, since it takes three hours to re-start, might as well have an old spark plug handy to stick in a wire and look for spark.  Spark, spark, spark...is it there?