HI-6 with stock 240z distributor ?

[Stanley]

After reading a recent thread here that included so information about the Crane HI-6 installation, I did some more search online. I think a cleaner burn at idle and mid-range might do my ride some good, especially with the SM needles.

I might try running it with points. According to the instructions, and other sources, it can be done. I saw on MSA catalog that HI-6 is triggered by points, etc., but they don't recommend it. Crane doesn't recommend it either, see attached, due to points float and wear. However, I read some stuff that recommends the points trigger, as it's cheaper, no issues installing a retrofit trigger or different distributor, easy to switch back to stock, and no issue with trigger wires moving when driving. The last one might not matter depending on the trigger. Also, read that points wear (not the contacts, the spring and the piece that rides the cam) and float aren't a big deal if you keep it under 7000 rpm (posted by drag racer on Ford site), because point gap can and should be reduced with the CD box, which reduces both problems. Also, I could always upgrade to xr3000 later.

A few questions, though. First of course is the tach. My 73 has the current-driven tach which works fine. Keeping it for now. Also keeping the new (7 years ago) stock 240z euro distributor. About a year ago I posted a thread to see if anyone made the stock tach work with MSD and 240z distributor. Apparently not. The HI-6 instructions seem to imply most tach's work, but I'm not going to waste my time and money if I don't know.  A diagram or photos of a setup that works with a stock tach and distributor would be way better than the generic diagram (fig. 2 in the instructions). 

Also, what coil to use, and ballast resistor or not. Fig. 2 shows a "ballast resistor, if used", but doesn't explain. Maybe the stock tach will work if ballast resister is used ? Seems like it might be different with points but I'm guessing (again).

Last, will the stock (I use Japanese parts) cap and rotor be OK with more energy going through ? Seems like it could be regulated by ballast, coil, and plug gap, if so how much is OK for daily driver ?

Crane HI 6 instructions 2.pdf

[Zed Head]

I think that you're going to have tach problems.  The instructions show that the power wire to the coil positive, that runs through your 240Z tachomoeter, is cut and redirected to the Hi-6 box.  The power characteristics in to the Hi-6 might be different than the power draw from the coil positive.  The stock configuration pulls a bunch of current through the tach loop, then stops.  The Hi-6 probably has a more steady draw, or spikier.  But not the same.

Your tach would be where the red arrow points.  Before the coil.  Now it's before the Hi-6 box.

Edit - took out a bunch of CDI stuff.  I don't really know why one is better than another or if one is.

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Zed Head

[Chickenman]

I've been using Crane ignition boxes ( HI-6 CD Box ) since 1998 on my vehicles with zero failures.

Just went through this on Hybrid Z  forum with a Mega squirt. A 1973 should be an RPM based Electronic Tach . The change over from current based Tach to Electronic style is 08/72. A 260Z or 280Z Tach has been confirmed to work with a Hi-6 for sure. You may or may not need a Tach adapter.

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/124640-240z-tach-driver/

You can trigger off the points no problem. Current through points is not a worry. An MSD or Crane box uses millamps through the points as a trigger. Do not use a Ballast resistor. Use a Crane PC91, LX91 or MSD Blaster 2 coil. The Crane coils are preferred. The PS92 and LX 92 coils are over kill for most Normally aspirated cars. Either of the Crane 91 series coils will generate enough current and voltage to awaken Frankenstein !!! 

Do use premium quality  spiral core wires such as NGK, Magnacore, MSD or Aurora. Note that Nology, Taylor and " Quality " are not used in the same sentence.

 

BTW, when we mention HI-6 we are talking about the CDI Box. It can be triggered by points, Magnetic or Variable Reluctor, Hall effect and Optical

The Hi-6S is an inductive box and can only be triggered by a square wave output from a  stock ignition module OR an Optical Trigger ( Hall and Magnetic/VR will not work. Crane makes an Optical trigger conversion for points dizzy's . LED is 700-0020 and Optical Wheel kit is 700-2292

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crn-700-2292/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crn-700-0020/requiredparts/part-type/electronic-distributor-conversion-kits

 

Or you could use a Pertronix Optical LED. 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Chickenman

[Zed Head]

1973 is different from the 280Z's, and the 260Z.  Probably had somehting to do with the introduction of electronic ignition.

Power runs through the tachometer first, then to the coil.  In the 280Z's and the 260Z power runs through the coil first then to the tach.  So by inserting the Hi-6 box in between the coil and the tach you're affecting the trigger for the tachometer.

Feel free to walk him through it though.  Tach problems are common with the aftermarket boxes.

[Chickenman]

There's a complete article on this at Hybrid Z. On how to get Datsun 240Z Tachs to work with an MSD 6AL. MSD Tach output is same as Crane or any other box. Apparently works on 1973 Tachs and up as mentioned.

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/37376-getting-your-early-240z-tachometer-working-with-an-msd-6-series-ignition/

In the article they use the MSD Tach adapter #8920. Crane also has a Tach adapter for Import Tachs that require a High Voltage Pulse and can be used for Triggering current sensing Tachs. Crane # 6000-8920

 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Chickenman

[Zed Head]

I've seen that before and it seemed like a lot of mixed results.  Edited a bunch of my comments out.  If you read through that thread you'll see people who had no problem and people who've tried everything and still have problems.  I don't see one method that's guaranteed.

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Zed Head

[Chickenman]

From what I read,  the original write up from Turbo6inKY was on his 240Z, which going from his signature is a 1970.  He also referred to cutting one wire loop out of the currnet sensing style Tachs, so that has to be referring to early 240Z Tachs?? Yes?? Also, lots of posts on various EFI forums, particularily Mega Squirt on how to get 240z, 260z and 280z Tachs working with aftermarket boxes.

There are various way to do it. 260Z and 280Z Tachs are easy peasy. 08/72 and later Tachs need the MSD 8620 or Crane 6000-8920 Tach adapter ( Not the 8910 or 6000-8910 ) . Earlier 240Z current Tachs require some rewiring and the 8920 adapter or the some other similar adapter such as the Technoversions Tach Match as you mentioned.

http://www.technoversions.com/TachMatchHome.html

There is also the Dinoplex conversion;

http://dinoplex.org/tachoconversion/

.... or just swap in a 280Z Tach.

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Chickenman
Added Dinoplex link

[Zed Head]

Looks great in words.  But I'm sure that I could find a case of "it didn't work for me" for every one of your examples.  There are lots of posts all over the internet about people who can't get their tachs to work.  The latest I saw is a Megasquirt application.  madkaw was there and you too.  madkaw's pretty good with easy-peasy stuff.

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/124640-240z-tach-driver/?hl=tachometer#entry1165438

[Zed Head]

Actually, within that thread is the typical scene.  Works for one guy then the exact same setup doesn't work for another.  72_NorCal didn't get it to work, Post #4 and on.  The people it worked for say it should work for everybody.  And the people it doesn't work for are left hanging.

[Chickenman]

Well, if some people can get it to work and some can't, I'd say that probably is a more of a result of their skill level ( or lack there of ) than anything else. Regardless, enough people HAVE made it work and there are alternatives  Electronics are second nature to some people and absolute nightmares to others. I'm currently running a Haltech E11 standalone ECU on software and a Computer that even Haltech in Australia said couldn't be done.

BTW, my friend Mark Farrow has a 1972 240Z with a SBC 383, MSD 6AL and stock Factory 1972Tach. He's got that working fine and calibrated for a V8... and he's certainly not a genius  at Electronics  ( Sorry Mark ) . We have lots of guys running Datsun 510's out here that have aftermarket Ignition Boxes, engine swaps, Aftermarket EFI and even COP... all running on stock Factory Datsun Tachs. So I guess some people can get it to work and some can't... Normal situation in Life I'd say.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Chickenman
Spelling

[Zed Head]

Are you actually running that Haltech?  Your last few posts said that you will be running a Haltech.  Thought you were still collecting parts. 

As far as skill level - it's just connecting three wires, for the 8920 adapter.  

A corollary to what I said above - the guys who connect three wires and end up with something that works feel like electronics experts.  The guys who connect three wires and get nothing are left hanging.  It's just three wires.

[Zed Head]

Stanley - sorry to fill your thread with tach arguments.  There are enough brainy electrical guys on this forum that you'll probably be able to get your tach to work. CO and SteveJ are out there.  Might take a few tricks though.  The guy in Chickman's Hybirdz thread actually used the MSD 8920 adapter instructions correctly to get his tach to work, he just ran the current backwards through the tach.  People have amped up the current effect even more by taking their 240Z tach out and adding more wire loops.

Actually the brainy guys could probably figure out what that 8920 adapter is doing.  It's wired kind of like an ignition module.