$80,000 to paint my Z!!!

[Matthew Abate]

So on Friday I sent emails to about 7 car restorers and body shops in northeast New Jersey to get informations so I can choose a shop. These places ranged from auto body shops that do new cars and collision repair to antique car restorers that specialize in porsches and American midcentury stuff.

So far everyone is refusing to give me an estimate, even ballpark, which I kind of understand but kind of don't I work in a field that is prone to scope creep and schedule slips due to unforeseen issues (digital experience design), so I get that people don't want to get locked into estimates that are wilding out of line, but I also know that once you've done similar projects more than twice you can get fairly close, given the condition that the budget is renegotiated after things pop up.

Long story short, the first response I got back quantified the labor for stripping, welding in new floors and filling belt line trim holes, dipping, epoxy priming, 3-stage painting, and undercoating at 950 hours or more at $85 / hour.

This seems insane to me.

Can anyone give me an idea of what this kind of bodywork should take, labor wise?

Or conversely, can someone talk me into not doing all of this stuff? I understand that dipping could probably be the first thing cut from my list, but I have seen a lot of projects that get completely stripped and quality paint done, and I can't imagine that that many people are over investing in their Zs. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Matthew Abate

[Matthew Abate]

By the way, this is the description of the car that I sent to these shops:

Quote

Right now I can tell you the following about the car:

• The engine and transmission are out
• 99% of the interior is out
• The front fenders, hood, front fascia, headlight bezels, and both bumpers are off.
• The rear hatch, both doors, and rear panel including tail lights are still on.
• The suspension is still on
• All six pieces of glass and the window mechanisms are still in
• The car is mostly primer grey
• There is little surface rust on the body
• The floors have rusted through and I plan to order replacement floor panels this weekend
• There are two holes cut in the bulkhead behind the seats for speakers. I am currently sourcing replacement metal from another car
• I may want to replace the frame rails with aftermarket ones for a 280z
• There may be a thin layer of bondo covering the roof. If so I would expect it to be removed.
• I want to weld up the holes for the belt-line trim
• There are holes in both doors for after-market mirrors that need to be welded up and smoothed out
• There is factory adhesive sound deadened in the interior that needs to be removed before painting
• There are zero dents

I will want to strip the entire car. I have been going back and forth between blasting and chemical stripping. The metal on these cars is very thin and can easily be damaged or destroyed by blasting, plus I don't want any medium under my paint and I know how hard it is to get it all out. On the other hand, I haven't had success finding places that chemical strip.

I will want to either take the suspension parts off so that I can  paint them myself, or I will want to have you strip and paint them, so this will need to be part of the itemized estimate I am looking for.

I have not finalized what colors I want to paint the car. The rear panel will be the factory grey, but the rest of the car will either be the factory Nissan 918 Orange plus clear coat or I will go with something more contemporary, such as the Atomic Orange used on recent Corvettes, or perhaps the Madagascar orange used on Aston Martins. Not sure yet.

Lastly, I want to make sure that everything possible is done to weatherproof the metal before and after painting. I'm looking for costs on treating the metal pre primer, using epoxy primer, and undercoating the car. Again, these cars have notoriously thin body panels and I want to make the car last longer than it has so far. Recommendations here are greatly welcomed.

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Matthew Abate

[psdenno]

What's your budget for this restoration?  Knowing that number would make planning a bit easier to accomplish.

Dennis

[djwarner]

From the work you have already done and your RFQ I assume you are seeking a concours restoration. If you think the body work is expensive, wait til you try to source some of the replacement parts.

Is this your goal or are you seeking a competent, reliable fun to drive car?

When it comes to restoration costs, the sky's the limit - and you are guaranteed to lose money when you pass it on. So it is your option as to how much money you want to burn. Check Hagerty's website to figure how much your 1 rated car will be worth. While 240Zs have appreciated over the last few years, there is a practical limit on future appreciation.

In Florida, a competent paint job alone will run $5-7K.

If you are going to pull the suspension, consider powder coating.

[siteunseen]

I was quoted $5,000 to $7,000 just as DjWarner says.  That's a quality paint job with them removing all the glass and reinstalling it.  I would have to remove the side markers, bumpers and tail light assembly as well as the emblems.  FYI

No way in hell would I pay $80,000 just for paint.  That's 8 more 240s to add to my "retirement fund". 

[Kurbycar32]

Time Vs Money Vs Skill

I feel that anyone can sandblast a car and replace the flooring given patience and a borrowed mig welder; those are some of your largest expenses.  See if you can borrow a mig welder from a friend and if you dont have any friends that weld its still going to be cheaper to buy a new mig from harbor freight.  Then go down to the junk yard and buy a fender or some useless part to practice welding.  Drill some holes and fill them, cut out a hole and weld it back in.  Top tip: get some neodymium magnets to hold things together while welding and some copper (i use smashed 1/2" copper pipe.) to act as backing for hole filling.  If you can figure out welding you can complete your body work

That puts you in the position of calling a car shop and saying "hey i have this car i want primed and painted" instead of "i have this project that needs to be complete from the ground up"

These cars still exist because guys like us spend the hundreds of hours required to fix them without paying an hourly rate.  if you had time to learn how to paint you could do that too

[John Coffey]

I've done a few restorations.  I currently work at Benton Performance and its generally $80K to $125K to do a complete restoration on  901 chassis Porsche.  We are finishing up the Peking to Paris 240Z build and that was a complete strip and rotisserie build and the customer will probably have over $80K in the car.  The $80K estimate you received is reasonable given the unknowns the shop fears and the vague nature of your e-mail.  We would not even send you an estimate based on your e-mail.  You would have to bring the car in and pay for a vehicle safety and condition inspection ($260.00) before we would write an estimate.  It would also take us a couple days to create the estimate.  In California  an estimate is a legal document and a commitment on the part of the shop and the customer.  Shops have to be very careful and act in a very professional manner from the fist contact with the customer.

Edited February 18, 2016 by John Coffey

[wheee!]

Good work is never cheap.... excellent work is priceless. Be clear of what you are asking a body shop to do. A daily driver in good shape will cost good money. A concourse restoration show car will be very expensive, not something the average Joe will want to take on without deep pockets.

My own "resto-mod" will be in the neighbourhood of $45,000 when I'm done and that's with me doing ALL the labour possible. Repairs, welding, autobody and paint... Engine rebuilding MAY be the only outsource I do. When I'm done, the car will hopefully be worth around +$30,000 market value...  A friend of mine paid well over $50,000, mostly for body work and paint. And that is a resto-mod too. Not an original restore.

[Consigli]

In Phoenix, the shops will tell you a car restoration (any car) starts at $80,000. To make the numbers less oppressive, you need to be able to restore the car yourself. But that requires time, commitment & skill that most don't have. And you will still lose money in the end. Its why many people opt to buy restored cars instead of doing them yourself. Its just not financially prudent to pay a shop to restore a car. And that's pretty much any car - not just Z cars.  However, if you find one of these in a barn go ahead and drop a couple hundred grand on the resto!

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Archive/Event/Item/1969-PONTIAC-GTO-RAM-AIR-IV-CONVERTIBLE-188609

 

[Patcon]

Soooo...California, Arizona and NJ are expensive to get your car painted; Florida, Alabama and South Carolina, not so much. I was quoted $6-7000 for all my metal work, epoxy primer, finished in basecoat clearcoat. One of the guys would blast it for that... I opted to do it all myself because I can use that $6000 to buy tools and new parts. I figure I will have about $10 -$12,000 in it reasonably finished. I am not trying to build a trailer queen but a nice driver.

One thing you could try, is call Datsun Spirit or another reputable Z specialist and see if they paint or could recommend someone that is not too far away. Even if you have to trailer it out of NJ, for that kind of money hauling it a few hours would be well worth it.

[Consigli]

I'm no expert, but the resto shops charge the big bucks to restore a car to between #1 & #2 condition, as defined by Hagerty:

https://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/Classifications-and-Conditions

Bottom line is that cars make no financial sense at all. The guy paying $250K for a GTO at Barrett-Jackson may take a 6 figure loss the next time the muscle car market crashes. The guy paying a resto shop $80K plus most likely will take a loss unless he's lucked into a very rare and valuable car for cheap. And the skilled do it your selfer most likely will never get all his money back. Conversely, Richy Rich who just shelled out $120K for that brand new Mercedes S class can watch his "investment" (LOL!) depreciate to $60K in about 4 or 5 years. With cars, almost EVERYONE pays! Treat cars as a hobby and that's all. Not many hobbies pay you back what you put into them, cars included. So pay your money for your car hobby and have your fun! 

Edited February 19, 2016 by Consigli

[Matthew Abate]

So it turns out the guy thought I wanted them to do the whole project even though I had specified just stripping, painting, and metal work. We'll see what he says.

As far as not giving estimates goes, anyone who can't give me an idea of the possible range is not doing business well, regardless of what the industry standard is. This is different from an estimate, and contracts should be written in such a way so as to make sure the job doesn't get into a jam, but refusing to scope the project outright is BS.

And as far as AZ is concerned, I had a 1965 Corvair stripped, dipped, epoxy coated, and painted, plus under coat for $8,000 in 2000. Inflation hasn't climbed 8 times, so it's either a premium the Barrett Jackson crowd is pulling or some other crazy BS.

/M