Is it lifestyle

[Alan Pugh]

This is something that has always intrigued me. In Aus there were roughly 2400 240Z's sold here. Some might say not many, but keep in mind this was a fairly expensive sports car at that time with a population of somewhere around 16,000,000. Then the 260Z's came along with which the 2+2 was introduced.

About 1100 2 seaters were sold but nearly 3000 2+2's sold during the four and a half years these were on the market before the 280ZX was released. As we all know 280Z's never made it to Aus, other than a few, i'll say special imports.

In the US on the other hand, the figures are quite the reverse when it comes to 2 seaters and 2+2's, is this a lifestyle thing or a matter of different tastes between the two countries. I'm not sure on actual figures of cars sold in the US but I do know that the 2+2's made up a very small percentage of all cars sold.

I would like to hear your comments on this, and any other things that have influenced you younger guys that were not around when these cars were released.

Alan.

[sjcurtis]

I think we in Australia got trapped with the supply and demand problem ( market forces), when we wanted the 2 seaters the factory could not supply. The factory sent a lot of 260z in 2 by 2 because that is what was surplus to build off the line.

my 2c

cheers

Steve:classic:

[v12horse]

I don't know if this is going to answer your question, but it will add to it. I am 20 years old and my dad bought the early 74 260 a few years ago. Since then he has drifted from it and I have become very interested in the car and the history of Datsun/Nissan.

What I am going to discuss is all from what I have heard from others and read in books and online.

The Z was shipped to the US mostly because it was geared towards the US market. Many (almost all) of the trim levels offered on the Z's in Japan were not offered elsewhere because Nissan did not know if the Z was going to be a flop outside Japan. One of the reasons why the Z was so popular was because Datsun almost as soon as they introduced the car put it in races(scca and world rally). When the cars started winning these events they became very desirable because not only were they fast and nimble, but they were strong and dependible enough to win a grueling rally.

The approximate number of 240z's shipped to the US was 148,115 and for the 260z 2 seaters, 40,588 and the 2+2 it was 9,499(all these numbers came from "Nissan/Datsun a history of nissan motor corporation in U.S.A. 1960-1980). These numbers are staggering compared to sales of the Z car in other countries.

I am not sure about this, but I think the 260z was made up until 1977 or 78 in japan and sent to aus but not to the us, we got the 280z in 75 and the last 260 in late 74. I assume this was because of the emission problems in the US at the time. I hope I answered some of your questions and made you think of some new ones. Take care

[Alan Pugh]

OK i've found my figures. Disregard the initial 500 240's sent to the US in 1969 as the US was the only country to recieve any cars that year.

From 1970 to 1977 in the US 328,863 240, 260 & 280's were sold, compared to 3,481 in Aus. That's 94 to 1.

2+2's on the other hand US 34,885 & Aus 2,956. Thats 12 to 1.

I find these figures stagering.

I do always remember though my Grandfather who fought in World War 2 and a lot of his mates,would not buy Japanese cars of any description. My mum bought a Datsun 1200 and he did not speek to her for 3 months afterward. I suppose these cars weren't aimed at their age group but there are a lot of different factors that go into these things.

A lot of people my age (42) as kids got taken on Sunday drives for a picnic, you can't fit the kids in a 2 seater.

Anyway that's enough from me, and if anyone else from other countries has anything they can add i'd like to hear it.

Alan.

[Doehring]

Here in Germany we never had the chance to buy any 2-seater Z or ZX, exept inthe very first year of the 240 Z. They sold only 40-50 here and most of them are gone rusty. Datsun/Nissan than only offered the 2+2s. This was not even in the interest of the shops, esp. not concerning the Z31 and Z32.

The Z 32 was not even as na available. I would have chosen a na Z32 2-seater. Let's see what they do to the 350 Z here.

Rolf

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by Alan Pugh

Disregard the initial 500 240's sent to the US in 1969 as the US was the only country to recieve any cars that year.

Alan, hope you don't mind me making a quick interjection here;

Japan had cars in 1969. Admittedly it was late in '69 - but not any later than the USA. Yes, there were fewer of them - but they DID exist. I'll always point that out when I see anyone saying different or making it sound a bit like the USA got the first Z cars. The USA got the first EXPORT Z cars, but the S30-series Z debuted in Japan and was first sold in Japan.

Back on the true subject of the original post, I think there is something in all of the points made so far.

There was definitely a supply and demand problem around the time of the debut of the RS30 / RLS30 260Z and the 2+2 versions, and by all accounts NISSAN really did start to get their knickers in a twist around that time. The "260Z" model was released in Japan and then quickly withdrawn from sale after numerous problems with emissions regulations not being met, and there were all sorts of other problems inside the Japanese parent company at that time. I don't think it seems to have affected the USA-market cars so much as all the other ( predominantly RHD ) markets. Definitely this is a factor.

Having taken the step of productionising the 2+2 model ( something that was originally planned to be sold alongside the 2-seater back when the range was launched in '69 - but then shelved ) they naturally would have wanted to sell as many of them as possible. I don't think that NISSAN would have held back on promoting the 2+2 model, and their advertising of the period certainly shows that they had a damn good go at making it a big seller. Here in the UK, Datsun UK made a big hoo-ha about the 2+2 models and could almost be seen to be pushing them rather than the 2-seaters. Add to this the fact that they had already had around three years-worth of sales on the 2-seaters, and you might imagine that they had pretty much sold as many 2-seaters as they could place with owners. Sales of 2-seaters would have naturally been starting to slow up here. I don't know how many 2+2 models were sold in the UK, but it seems a lot to me. Porbably something like the numbers that Alan posted for the Australian market. ie - proportionally more than the USA market.

When the 2+2 debuted, it must have allowed those people who really wanted a 2-seater ( but could not get their family / spouse to accept it as a practical family car ) to buy something that looked a bit like the 2-seater - but had that added bit of practicality. I still know people over here who justify their 2+2 ownership with this point. Truth be told, many of them would seem to actually want a 2-seater, but could not get familial consent...............

Surely the situation in the USA was different? With more cars per capita, and a cheaper retail price in relation to average income than other markets, surely many 2-seater owners either had another ( "shopping" ) car / runabout or indeed were mostly younger ( with no kids? ) or less tied-down than their non-USA counterparts? I think these people would not have been forced to 'compromise' like those in other markets might have been.

So surely, as Alan suggested, this really IS an issue of lifestyle linked to circumstances?

No offence to 2+2 owners, but you can see why most people would choose the 2-seaters over the 2+2 models if all other factors other than visual appeal are discounted.

I've personally got a soft spot for nice clean original 2+2 models ( and especially the Japanese "2/2" models ) with all their correct equipment and Factory accessories. They are actually very good all-round cars, and are some of the rarer models out there. I'm glad that they exist.

Alan T.

[Alan Pugh]

Thanks Alan T. you are right about the Japanese cars. I have found it hard to find figures on home market cars sold.

I had heard that the 2+2 was designed in unison with the 2 seater cars but thought it might have been a rumour started by a 2+2 owner. Does anybody know why the 2+2's were shelved and not released. Was it a last minute market survey?

I probably should say about now that I am a 2+2 owner and yes I have come up with some good stories to mates as to why. Truth is i'd have a 2 seater tomorrow if she who is to be obeyed would let me. Having said that I wouldn't get rid of the 2+2 to do it because I honestly do love the longer look but I think they could have done better on the shape of the quarter window.

So when my car is finished and on the road with myself, my wife, my son and the dog, who loves the fact that the quarter window opens we will enjoy it.

Alan.

[HS30-H]

Hi Alan,

The story that I have always heard is that the Factory decided to concentrate initial production and sales on the 2-seater after consultation with NMC USA, and in particular Mr Yutaka Katayama. He wanted to maximise the chances of the car being a success, and didn't want to confuse the market too much. The S30 series Z project did after all start out at concept stage as a 2-seater.

The 2+2 model ( contrary to much popular myth ) did indeed get penned alongside the 2-seaters. A pretty close mock-up / pre-production model existed back in '68. I think we have discussed this fact in other posts.

Glad that you love your 2+2 and its opening quarter windows ( a great feature ).

All the best,

Alan T.

[Caen Fred]

Hello all,

I saw a 1972 240z with no clock? I do not mean that the clock was missing, it has never been there ! The shape was there for the clock, but it was plain plastic in the dash...

So Prof Alan, is it a special 3rd world export model, how much is the clock? is it That expensive that you could "save" on this option?????

I will not release the country's name, but they eat cheese and are always late for wars, maybe this is the reason why!

[HS30-H]

Originally posted by Caen Fred

I will not release the country's name, but they eat cheese and are always late for wars, maybe this is the reason why!

Hi Fred,

That must be Switzerland you are talking about eh?

Some models in Japan had a clock 'delete' option ( notably the Fairlady Z base model S30-S and the Fairlady Z432-R PS30-SB ). These models came from the Factory with the Clock filler panel - which was just a plastic disc that blanked off the hole.

I've got a picture of one somewhere. I'll pull it out and post it later ( I'm just about to drop off a package at the FEDEX office - so it'll have to wait ).

But why on earth would they want to delete just the clock on a Euro HLS30? Surely it must have been one of several cost-cutting deletes that the original owner specified? Did it have the "plastic" carpets and no rubber trim on the bumpers too? Some of these had the interior vinyl trim with NO diamond pattern ( just plain grain ) and just one interior sun shield. I've also seen them with the non-dipping interior mirrors.

I like the super-basic models. Less is more.

Allons-y!

Alan T.

[dozer171]

as far as the states, at the time, we were used to these monsterous land yachts with huge motors that could go like crazy in a straight line... everyone knew about porsche and the such, but, how could you afford them in good consionce (sp?) knowing that there was a 1970 Dodge Superbee 440 six-pack on a lot for only about 3K? then here comes this wee japanese sports car, front discs (still relatively unheard of in the muscle car world... drums baby!), fully independant suspension, great handling, great on gas (compared to 3 mpg that my dad got out of his suped up Bee!), and, best of all, quick to boot! this was the begging of the end of the muscle car era when the Z was released, so, many felt that they could keep their passion alive if they bought the Z. and, because many of the greats were two seaters (yes, porsche's have 4 seats, but, geez, those seats are barely big enough for a baby!), why not go for a two seater? there was already a boat in the garage for the family, time for a toy! also, most people i talk to here think that the 2+2 is ugly as sin, but, we love them just the same! i dunno, perhaps a fragmented explanation there....

[nutxo]

I first took interest in the 280 when i was a kid and a neighbor had one, then I still thought the 68 camaro was the greatest car ever, (still do sometimes ;-) ) So I thought it was cool but that was about it.

While in the service a freind let me use his 2+2 and that was it, I wanted a 280 2+2 ever since, When I got my 280 I felt a little sad that it wasnt a 2+2. Mebbe some people just like the 2+2,..