Found metal at the bottom of my 5-speed. What next?

[EuroDat]

Just followed your like to the ratsun guys discusion. It looks like its out of a 720 2wd truck with the L20B engine, probably 1980 model. In 81 they went over to the Z engine (NAPS) Z22 and Z24. It wouldn't be the 620 because they had the short rear extension.

 

I couldn't see your picture of your clutch sets until now. It was showing as a link. I can see the pull ring on the alignment tool bottom right in photo. You should drop the transmission to lubricate the splines. New disc and clean input shaft will be dry and could cause problems later.

I wipe a small amount of grease onto the splines and use the old clutch disc to move up and down the splines and remove any excess. If you push the disc on, the grease will heap up around there and could sling off into the disc.

Edited May 15, 2016 by EuroDat
couldn't see photo

[Zed Head]

You have so much going on that it's easy to overlook the simple stuff.  Here's an important one - did you get a new collar, the part with the ears that the fork sit on, with your clutch kit.  The collar is a match to the pressure plate and if your new pressure plate has a different height than the old one you might have clutch release problems.  The ears on the collar should be about 92 mm from the surface of the flywheel when it's all stacked. If you are using the old collar you should check that or check that the surface the TOB sits on is the same height for old and new pressure plates.

On the clutch disc alignment tool - the weight of the disc will make it tilt down a little bit, especially if it's a sloppy fit (some tools are better than others).  You need to hold it up and tight in to the bushing while you finger tighten a few of the pressure plate bolts.  It can be difficult.

 

[KDMatt]

4 hours ago, Zed Head said:

You have so much going on that it's easy to overlook the simple stuff.  Here's an important one - did you get a new collar, the part with the ears that the fork sit on, with your clutch kit.  The collar is a match to the pressure plate and if your new pressure plate has a different height than the old one you might have clutch release problems.  The ears on the collar should be about 92 mm from the surface of the flywheel when it's all stacked. If you are using the old collar you should check that or check that the surface the TOB sits on is the same height for old and new pressure plates.

On the clutch disc alignment tool - the weight of the disc will make it tilt down a little bit, especially if it's a sloppy fit (some tools are better than others).  You need to hold it up and tight in to the bushing while you finger tighten a few of the pressure plate bolts.  It can be difficult.

 

That's an interesting point. I do not believe I got a new collar. I do have a new T/O bearing on the existing one though. You can see it in the previous pictures -- it looks like it's seated properly (this was my first thought.)

If I remember right, this was a "kit" that I ordered... it was a few years ago now though (because the Z has been 'sitting' for about that long) so I don't remember the details. I suppose if I have to, it wouldn't be the end of the universe to re-use the old pressure plate, even then I would generally prefer to keep the new stuff in there. The newer pressure plate does have fewer teeth than the original one, which is not super uncommon from what I've seen. 

I'm going to drop the transmission back down a bit and fiddle with the alignment again to see if that makes everything line up a little more easily. If that still doesn't do it, I'll see what happens with the old pressure plate.

You guys have given me some options. Thank you! I'll find some time to play with it. 

[Dave WM]

Really like the progress you are making, its making me think I will use the existing pressure plate/clutch on mine when I do the swap. I know its a good time to replace the clutch, but I really like the idea of only making one change at a time. I have learned this process working on old electronics. If you are experienced you can make multiple fixes and trouble shoot if an issue arises. Newbs can run into trouble since it can be hard to determine what's wrong if multiple fixes are done and then there is a problem. Yes its more work (as I will likely have to replace the clutch later) BUT since I am really doing this as a hobby, and not paying for the time (not going with the rent a bay, just got some 12 ton jack stands), it's ok to be wasteful of time. BTW the Jacks are MASSIVE I mean HUGE 20" min high and 12*12 base makes me feel like I will not worry about it. Its getting busy at work for me now so I am going slow but will get there. Good work, more pics and video if you can please.

[Zed Head]

Here's what I'm talking about.  And a link showing the various possibilities.  The pressure plates have various heights over the years and models.  That measurement is to the top of the ears, where the fork sits, not the top of the collar.  zparts lists the transmissions, but it's the pressure plate that matters.  Wish they'd fix that.  I think that the original page is from zhome.

http://www.zparts.com/zptech/articles/trans_swap%20parts/4tobear_specs1.html

[siteunseen]

I just did that. I got 91 mm too.

[KDMatt]

If I took the new pressure plate back out, and put it side by side with the old one, would that give a pretty good general impression if there's a discrepancy or not? 

@Dave WM I'll try to document as much as I can. It's the least I can do after your helpful videos and links.

It looks like the opening on the new pressure plate is a little bit bigger than the old one, perhaps lending a little more fuel to the speculation that my new pressure plate is just different enough from the old one to keep everything from lining up correctly.

For the record, this is what the assembly looked like before I tried to slide the transmission up into it.

 

[Zed Head]

The reason it's important is because it sets the angle of the fork at first contact, which determines where the slave cylinder piston starts.  Best to measure.  You could measure across the tops of the lever arms with a straight edge, at the hole center, where the TOB sits, to the base of the plate and compare those dimensions.  If they're the same and you're using the same collar you'll be fine.

[Dave WM]

I would be real tempted to futz around with that alignment tool just to see how easy it goes in then. Also don't know about yours but my input shaft has a tiny bit of play in it. I figure this is normal  considering how its supported ( a single needle bearing and input shaft bearing with a fairly long input shaft to multiply the play). I assume this is why you have to "finesse" the shaft into the pilot bushing. Maybe some measurement from the bolt holes to the side of the centered up alignment tool? compare the trans just to make sure you are in the ball park? Of course my suggestions are from someone that has never done this, but really just thinking out loud. Really pulling for you since I am in the same boat and want to see some success!

Edited May 15, 2016 by Dave WM

[KDMatt]

Guys, you were right on the money (and Dave your instincts here are impeccable) -- I put the alignment tool again, and sure enough it jammed and got stuck until I loosened the whole thing and took it out again, which means the alignment was just a smidgen off -- just enough to keep things from being happy. I'm going to re-align and re-install and see where that leaves me.

Zed, I measured the two pressure plates side by side using two straight-edges, and as far as I can see they're approximately the same height. The slightly bigger opening in the Exedy pressure plate, now that I'm looking at it, is kind of a good thing - It provides just enough room for the "lip" on the throw-out bearing to seat into it, as opposed to the OEM design, where that lip just kind of rode along the inner-most edge of the pressure plate fingers. If there's, perhaps, a quarter millimeter height discrepancy between the two designs, this could explain why.

I hope that makes a little sense.

Thanks for sticking around in my corner, gang. 

[Dave WM]

21 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Yes, the fork and TO bearing are wiggly, but make sure that they are both properly clipped in to place.  The TOB on the fork, and the fork on the pivot ball. Also, did you seal the threads on the pivot ball?  I ad a transmission that leaked from there and had to pull the transmission again.  The threaded hole ends in the fluid area.

Saved me again, after reading this I went out and looked at mine, not only did I not use any sealant on the thread, but I had only installed it finger tight!

[KDMatt]

Clutch and pressure plate are back in... now the alignment tool comes in and out easily. I'm taking a quick break because my arm and wrist were both cramping pretty badly from the tight quarters buttoning everything down. I'm going to put a little dab of grease on the input shaft this time before I hoist the tranny back up. Fingers crossed! 

Also, Dave, since you're paying close attention for reference when you do this -- I highly recommend getting a volunteer to help you out with getting the transmission up into the car, but if you can't find one, I've been using a couple of ratching 500lb tow straps to help lift the transmission up and hold it in place while I wiggle it around. 

I've also got a sandbag underneath it just in case something goes awry and it falls. I think I was having nightmares last night about breaking a finger underneath a falling transmission, lol.