Rally anyone?

[rodd]

Heres the 1975 LeMans car.

I believe the rego is TKS33 su 6466

[rodd]

Heres the pic of the 260z with the same rego in the 1974 RAC Rally, also taken from Ray Huttons book.

[Z-point]

Alan,

Are you single, would you like to get married?

That would be probably the easiest way to get hold of these items ;-))

Indeed great stuff but what is a lot of Yen’s?

And I don’t want to rob you from you’re pictures I’m trying to find a way to get copies of it. Do you still have the negatives? Or otherwise, these days it’s possible to make new photos from the originals! The cost is all mine. And yes, I’m also interested in the rally car as well.

If you prefer to go private, the mail address is z-point@worldmail.nl.

I’ll keep it short this time I have to clean myself and prepare the trip to my mother, Mothers days you know!

Until later,

Guus

Z-point

[HS30-H]

Hi Guus and hi Rodd,

Well Guus, I AM single ( but "shacked up" ) so you can't really marry me - but what colour hair do you have????!!!! Nah, even if you marry me I won't give you the parts......

Seriously though, those Kobe Seiko Rally Mag replicas are REALLY expensive in Japan. I guess you are using Euros in Holland now, but in Pounds Sterling they work out at £300 EACH. That's the RETAIL price in Japan too - so you need to add the cost of shipping and duty too. That makes for a very exclusive set of wheels - but if you are aiming at making an accurate replica of the Monte Carlo car then I guess nothing else will do....... just don't look my way if you want cheap prices. Its just as expensive for me too. The prices of parts on my ZG made my hair turn grey and then start falling out.

I shall pick up on this with you privately - thanks for your e-mail address.

Rodd!

Thanks for the posts about the Le Mans cars, and glad to hear that you are also into the Works rally cars. Did you actually know that Nissan also still own the '73 Safari rally-winning car? They hardly ever show it ( it is in pretty-much the same condition as it finished the Rally ) and they keep it in Yokohama with the other two cars that they had on show at the NISMO HQ in December.Maybe one day they will make a proper museum, and you can get to see your favourite-ever Z in the flesh.

I have not seen that Fujimi kit of the '76 Le Mans car before ( despite having a lot of their other Z kits that I have never made ) and was interested to see that they made the kit without the aerodynamic front end on it - but with all the "overfenders" and the big rear wing. Notice also the BMW CSL "Batmobile" style mini-spoiler above the rear hatch glass. Very interesting. Wonder why it was not as accurate as it should have been?

Thanks for the pictures of "6466" in Works rally car guise ( as driven by Harry Kallstrom ). I have some other photos of the car too. This car was a full-house,close to final development of the Works rally cars - with Injected "LY" Crossflow engine, 110 Litre fuel tank, vented rear disc brakes and the big diff. It was driven by Kallstrom on the '74 TAP Rally in Portugal, and then by Cahal Curley in the '74 RAC Rally in UK. Then it passed into the hands of Englishman Chris Sclater for a semi-Works supported career. PLEASE NOTE THAT AT THIS TIME IT WAS LEFT-HAND-DRIVE.

Hence my doubt about the true identity of the car that was entered at Le Mans in '75................. That car seemed to have suddenly been fitted with the whole rear panel from a "240Z" ( including the lights and trim pieces ) and had miraculously changed from LHD to RHD. This makes me wonder if indeed it REALLY WAS "6466" - or if the Japanese registration identity plates had been switched onto an earlier car in order to legalise its entry at Le Mans????? I certainly do not recall hearing that the '75 Le Mans car had rear disc brakes and a fuel-injected "LY" Crossflow engine - which was what "6466" was fitted with in its Rally career. And why would they change the whole rear panel to an earlier type? Surely if it was damaged they would have easily been able to find the correct "260" type panel and lights??? What about the ( if I am indeed right ) conversion from LHD to RHD? Does it make sense?

Certainly, Hans Schuller had good contacts with the factory and the Works Rally team staff - so he would have been well connected enough to pick up a "tired" ex-Works rally car and modify it for Le Mans. Schuller did some circuit racing in Japan for the Works team, and was apprently no slouch despite the fact that he was a navigator for Edgar Herrmann.

I really wonder whether the '74 Le Mans car was in fact an ex-Works 240Z Rally car - rather than "6466" which was a 260Z. Maybe they needed to pull some kind of switch in order to get the car into its class at Le Mans, and to "give" it the identity of "6466" helped this? The most fascinating thing in all this is to find out what actually happened to "6466" and what was the identity of the seemingly ex-Works 240Z Rally car that they put "6466"s identity on for the Le Mans entry?

I was also wondering if the '75 & '76 Le Mans cars were in fact the same car ( this does not seem to be mentioned anywhere ) and if the '76 Le Mans car still exists, despite the sadly fatal crash? If it did exist, it would be possible to pin down its true identity and clear this mystery up somewhat.........

Did you guys notice how few of our American friends seem to be interested in the Le Mans and Works Rally cars? I have not noticed many posts from them ( despite Mike starting this thread ) and I wonder if thet are tuning in or not? Is anyone out there?! Hope that you are not bored, because we are having a great time with this.......

More on this soon, all the best for now,

Alan Thomas ( HS30-H ).

[Caen Fred]

I will see what is suposed to be THE LE MANS car on saturday 25 may. The owner will bring it to a race track near Poitiers. They have a Le Mans Revival show. I will ask as many questions that I can, take all the shot I can and try like mad to have a run in it...

I will check the numbers if I can, so we will know what really is this car!

I will keep you informed anayway, Fred

[rodd]

Fred

Can't wait to see your pics.

Does anyone know how damaged the car was in its accident, or what caused it?

[rodd]

Boys not up to your standard of replicas, put these stripes and signwriting on my car temporarily for the Datsun Nationals last year just for some fun. Rip off of a famous racing Nissan in Australia. Any clues?

[Doehring]

Hi Z-rallye-freaks,

having spent a week on rainy Mallorca island I'm positively surprised how the discussion went on. Alan is right, it's a pity that our american friends are in a different world when talking about rallying or works or semi-works sportsZcars. So it's within us antipodes (Australia/NZ and Europe) to find out and to publish to our american friends how these cars performed in Kenia, at the Bandama, in Australia, Maroc, Greece, Portugal , Monte Carlo, in GB, Canada or anywhere else in the wide world, what their technical highlights and who the drivers were. I myself built up a rallyeZ to my personal needs and possibilities based on the FIVA standards and the original group 3 and group 4 homologation. Unfortunately I crashed the car and at the moment I built up an interim solution just to have something to compete with on a regional level, having my wife as navigator (which makes weekend life easier). My daily driver is a 300 ZXturbo and I also have a nice 280 ZX, very original with one main exeption, it has a catalytic converter now to meet the government and tax regulations here in Germany.

[HS30-H]

Hi all,

This is turning into a really entertaining and informative thread isn't it? Its a bit of archaeology, and much more interesting than all those "How fast will my Z go if.....?" threads isn't it!?

Rodd, I like your paint job - and your car looks nice and "simple". Really pure and nicely in period feel. Nice one.

Doehring, Sorry to hear that it rained for your holiday. Two weeks ago I was in Italy and it POURED down with rain every day. There were really bad storms over the whole central European area, and I got really wet. Best if you stay at home and stay tuned to this thread - its looking quite good.

Fred, sounds like you are on an exciting mission to see what claims to be the '76 Le Mans car this weekend. I think that you might like to get a good look at as many details as possible, but particularly these;

CHASSIS NUMBER ( is it an RS30 or an RLS30, or is it an HS30 or HLS30? ). As I mentioned before, "6466" was definitely an RLS30 chassis number - a Left-Hand-Drive European-Spec. "260Z". Strangely, the pictures of the '75 Le Mans car in period show a RHD car with the back end ( tail lamps and back panel / trim ) from a "240Z". This makes me think that it was not the same chassis as the Works Rally car chassis that the number "6466" was originally placed on. Of course, you are going to see what claims to be the '76 Le Mans car - which I guess does not necessarily have to be the same car as the '75 Le Mans car - but in my personal opinion I think they used the '75 car in '76 too.

ENGINE - this does not prove anything, but as far as I am aware the original engine on "6466" was an "LY" Crossflow, and possibly on the Nissan "ECGI" injection system. I believe that when the car passed into the hands of privateer rally driver Chris Sclater he used it with both the original engine and then a more normal L-26 bored up to 2.8 or 2.9 and with 50mm Mikuni carbs. It will be interesting to see what engine the car has now.

BODY - again, they would have modified the car for Le Mans - so this does not necessarily mean anything, but ALL of the Works Rally Zs had a "Flat Floor" at the rear. The spare-wheel well was removed and a ribbed panel was fitted flush with the surrounding floor. This enabled a much larger fuel tank to be used - initially a 100 Litre tank ( just like the PS30-SB tank ) and then a 110 litre tank. Later still, I believe a 120 Litre tank was also used. These big tanks and their flat floor are one of the things that quickly identifies Works competition Z cars.

It would be also interesting to look for evidence of Rally jacking point mountings, Sump Guard mountings, and evidence of the "Works" type roll cage - with two vertical bars from the roof hoop down to the floor. These were bolted, not welded into the car. However, I would have thought that the Le Mans regulations would have forced them to modify this.

Look for evidence of the fuel-filler in a cutout on the rear hatch, with a "Monza" style flip-down filler cap in a kind of box. The original fuel filler on "6466" was this type - unlike the earlier Works 240Z Rally cars which used the original location. They also changed the venting for the fuel tank, by putting vents in the acrylic glass of the quarter window. All the plastic windows on the Works cars were stamped with a small "NISSAN" logo on the interior side.

Apart from that, check just about EVERYTHING else!!!

The current owner might believe it to be the ex-"6466" body, or he might not. The car might have been re-shelled after the accident in '76, and in fact the '75 Le Mans car might not have actually been "6466" at all ( but I believe it WAS an ex-Works Rally 240Z, rather than a 260Z ).

This is like a Chinese puzzle, but it is fascinating....................

Sorry for the usual long-winded post.

HS30-H.

[HS30-H]

Fred!

Don't worry too much about checking out that car at the "Le Mans Revival" event on Saturday. When I saw the photos that you posted ( the silver car ) I realised that I had seen this car before. It was featured in a two page article in the December 1998 issue of NOSTALGIC HERO in Japan.

In the article, the owner ( Mr Pierre Bourgoin ) describes it as a genuine "Competition Model" - but he does not say that the car was actually the one ( or ones? ) that ran at Le Mans in '75 and '76.

What he says is that the car used to belong to Mr Andre Haller, the entrant and owner of the '75 and '76 Le Mans entries, and was the "sister car" to the one that crashed at Le Mans in '76 - sadly killing Mr Haller. He says that his car ( chassis number HLS30-39710 ) is a 1971 model car - one of two that were imported to Germany in 1972, and then brought to France presumably by Mr Haller.

So, in this article he is not claiming that his car actually competed at Le Mans - but he IS saying that it is a "Competition Model".

This seems to be a rather fanciful claim, as the only "Competition Model" S30 cars that were brought to Europe in the early 1970s were the factory "Works" Rally cars. These cars were based on special bodyshells that incorporated many design features and details from the PS30-SB ( 432-R ) and were in fact a kind of hybrid 432-R with an L-series engine and the special parts for Rallying. The Works circuit-race Z cars in Japan were initially based on the 432-R ( with the S20 engine ) and within a year they had partially switched to the the L-series engined cars, but still using many details from the PS30-SB bodyshells. These cars were called "240ZR" by the factory, and later developed into the Group 4, 5 & 6 racers with the full aerodynamic kit and the "LY" Crossflow engine on injection.

I don't know what Mr Bourgoin thinks makes his car a "Competition Model" - but perhaps he is under the impression that the car is something that it is not. As far as I can see from the article and the photos, the car does not seem to use any parts that would identify themselves as "Works" competition parts - let alone have the special body of an ex-Works Rally car or factory circuit race car. It even seems to have the normal S30-type fuel tank ( and none of the Works competition cars were fitted with those ). It does have Mikuni carburettors - but then so do many cars. These were available from many many sources - and Sanyo even offered a kit to fit them on the car when it was launched in 1969.

Perhaps Fred you should ask Mr Bourgoin what the history of his car is, so that you can hear it from him in person. If you have heard that this car is one of the cars that ran at Le Mans, and it is just hearsay, then all well and good. However, if Mr Bourgoin is claiming that his car IS one of those cars - then he needs to prove it. It seems to me that anyone doing this would need to make sure that he knew ALL about the factory race cars and the parts that they used, otherwise he would come unstuck very quickly. Even calling your car a "Competition Model" needs qualification, if the person saying it is inferring that it is some kind of official factory-built or sanctioned model..................

We must all be careful of people who might be interested in talking up the history of their car in order to make it worth more money, or fooling people who don't know any better.We should share information to make us better armed to fight against bogus claims and fancy stories.

Here is a scan of the article about the car;

All the best,

HS30-H

[HS30-H]

and here's the other page:

HS30-H

[Caen Fred]

It's nice to have you around, this is very educative! I will talk to the guy and report his word in the most honest way I can. We will find out. He is keeping is car anyway so I don't think that he is after money and want to add value to a fake, at least not deliberately. Still, it’s a nice car and I will have a nice time watching her as see will dance around on Le Vigeant race track. It’s a too rare occasion to see a mean Z around here…

Looks like we started a planetary enquire here, let’s find out and register all the Famous Z cars, and maybe you could start to put down a nice listing of the famous Z you know, where they are, who they belong to, history past and so on…

…what do you think; I hope it wouldn’t create a speculation war on our beloved cars.

Fred