Thank you President Clinton

[MDyer]

Unbelievable... this thread has come full circle. It was President CLINTON who fell down the stairs at PGA golfer Greg Norman's Florida mansion. The way the media covered it, it appeared that it was late-late night/early morning, and he was tanked.

Didn't he break his leg??

President Ford played Division I football at Michigan (Muck Fichigan). I think he played center.

[Arizona240z]

I remember that Clinton fall. he was probably chasing some bimbo down the stairs or too stoned to walk upright. If I remember correctly he sprainged (sp?) his ankle. Too bad he didn't hurt himself more.

[Bambikiller240]

I'm not going to bother researching it, as it really doen't matter to the thread, but I'm pretty certain that Carter also fell and hurt his head while he was President or shortly thereafter.

We all know about Clinton stumbling. A condom fell out of his pocket and he slipped on the lubricated foil wrapper.

Almost a worst case scenario of living by the penis and dying by it as well.

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by Mike

I've always wondered why people would loot, riot, and pillage their own neighborhoods.

"Hey, I'm pissed off!! I'm going to burn down my own neighborhood!!"

It just doesn't make logical sense to me.

But, hey, I don't see how we could really control something like that. It sounds easy to say that we can crack heads. But, how exactly would you go about doing that?

It's too easy to sit here behind our computers and come up with opinions, but, are they based on real-world facts and know-how? Not really.

Anyone care to read the tale of How and Why the looting of Iraq's Museums could and should have been prevented???

"The Rest of the Story"

Deplorable!

[ZwolleY]

Bush will never be confused with a man of culture.

[MDyer]

The article states that it was probably an "inside" job that resulted in the loss of the most valuable items. No way could we have stopped that, given the situation.

Gosh, I'm really sorry that the Presidents' top cultural advisor quit. Maybe he can narrate bus-top tour rides through downtown Chicago, or clean stalls at the Kentucky Horse Park.

The museums were not bombed. The museums were looted by hoods. If American GI's were filmed shooting the looters, we would be spending a helluva lot more time discussing/debating that.

5,000 year old bronze battle helmet... pretty? yes, interesting? yes.

But priceless? I could swear that all of the victorious soldiers were wearing Kevlar helmets, thereby rendering the bronze worthless.

It still amazes me that President Bush-haters will cling to ANYTHING to disparage the man. The Dems LOST the election, fair and square.

[tanny]

Even though I can be a flaming a_s liberal on some subjects, I can't really say I "hate" Bush. I don't agree with most of the stuff he and his party put forth, but how can you hate a boozer and a partier(partyer?). I just wish he had inherited his mother's brains. Actually seems like a decent guy if you can get past his Edsel(lemon eater) facial expression. They seem like a normal American family with the youngsters partying up just like the parents used to. Besides, they're Texans, and I've always kind of liked Texans(Texas elk hunters pretty much pay for the Colorado Div. of Wildlife, so I owe the Texans for my livelihood).

[ZwolleY]

I agree, Texans are not all bad. Three notable Texans whom I admire are Bill Moyer, Molly Ivans, and Ann Richards. Richards indeed got a bum rap laided on her by Carl Rove a few years ago.

[Arizona240z]

You said it Mike...... I can just see the news if we had wounded even one looter.

Tanny, there's still hope for you yet :classic: The right side is a nice place to be

ZwolleY, ZwolleY, Zwolley... Ann Richards Deserves all the negativity she gets, If Molly Ivins ain't crying about something, she ain't happy and Bill Moyers.... well if he was any good he wouldn't be hiding out in the not for profit world of PBS.

Before this thread gets any uglier let me say this........ as probably one of the most conservative people on this board, I'd like to point out that Conservatives with one notable selection (slick Willie, we hate him) do dislike the liberals. It's what makes this thing work. What frustrates and infuriates me is that it seems that on the Liberal side of the fence, they HATE all of the conservatives. I just don't get it.

As a pointless side note, to what is probably becoming a pointless thread, my best friend of 20 years is just about as far out there on the left as I am on the right..... these are topics we stay away from. Of course I think he is coming around as this week he mentioned that he is ready to leave the not for profit world and earn a respectable wage.

As far as who fell and who didn't, I'm pretty sure every President made a blunder or two, they are human afterall.

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by MDyer

The article states that it was probably an "inside" job that resulted in the loss of the most valuable items. No way could we have stopped that, given the situation..

There most certainly IS a way to stop the looting, whether it was an inside job or not. You control access. You allow no one in, and NOTHING out of the facility. If you are unable to prevent the first series of thefts, you do not stand idly by, using troops to remove anti-Daddy Bush slogans from a hotel floor while the looting continues for three days!

Originally posted by MDyer

Gosh, I'm really sorry that the Presidents' top cultural advisor quit. Maybe he can narrate bus-top tour rides through downtown Chicago, or clean stalls at the Kentucky Horse Park..

Keep in mind that the Presidents cultural advisor was appointed to his post by GW Bush to advise him on issues of cultural importance. Bush must have thought his opinions had SOME value, or maybe it was a "politcal payback" appointment.

Your comments about him cleaning the Horse Park and Bus Tours are just plain IGNORANT. Of course, the world has come to expect that from staunch supporters of Dubya.

Originally posted by MDyer

The museums were not bombed. The museums were looted by hoods. If American GI's were filmed shooting the looters, we would be spending a helluva lot more time discussing/debating that.

The soldiers were filmed standing by while the looting continued. Film of them defending the treasures of Iraq and the world would have played far better in all civilized nations, as civilized people understand the value of history. Also keep in mind that looters don't "storm the doors" when armed guards are there. They are by and large opportunistic people who take advantage of unguarded doors and windows.

PS to Dwight: Come on , Dwight. Listen to yourself, we killed many innocent Iraqi civilians in the bombing and there hasn't been "much" moaning about that, why would you think "if we had wounded even one looter" that would have been perceived as a big deal? Most conservatives are big on law and order, aren't they? Aren't you? I know that I am. Though I do not consider myself as either completely Liberal or Conservative.

Originally posted by MDyer

5,000 year old bronze battle helmet... pretty? yes, interesting? yes.

But priceless? I could swear that all of thevictorious soldiers were wearing Kevlar helmets, thereby rendering the bronze worthless .

It is typical that a GW Bush supporter would have no appreciation of cultural issues. But we are talking about one of the 10 most important museums in the world, which maintained a collection of international antiquities dating back some 5,000 years.

"The looting of the museum began on Friday; it extended, according to a BBC radio report, for three days, at which point there still were no guards posted outside the building. Numerous newspapers quote Iraqi citizens who saw American patrols impassively watch as looters carted away vases, jewelry, pots, and other goods."

We are also talking about a library that burned to the ground, which contained priceless manuscripts, and Qurans which an never be recovered as they are in ashes.

Many of the items lost or destroyed are considered important to the WORLD at large, not just the Iraqi people. Our leaders had an obligation to at least attempt to protect them. To protect them from being bombed, only to let them be stolen or otherwise destroyed is the height of arrogance and stupidity.

Your statement about "victorious soldiers were wearing Kevlar helmets, thereby rendering the bronze worthless." is another IGNORANT statement that has no validity.

Originally posted by MDyer

It still amazes me that President Bush-haters will cling to ANYTHING to disparage the man. The Dems LOST the election, fair and square.

Actually, I am not a Democrat, nor a Republican. I judge officials on their record of performance (or non-performance). Partisan politics mean nothing to me, and I've voted for more Democrats than Republicans in my life. I do not HATE Bush, with that being said, I do find that GW Bush is one of the most unqualified, and incompetent Presidents we've ever had. (Clinton, though NOT a good President,was more "qualified", but was morally bankrupt.) By the way, I would not exactly call the election of GW Bush as "fair and square". There is more than a little controversy about how that election was "won".

[Arizona240z]

Ok, the looting happend, just like it happens here when a College or Pro team wins the end of the season (Basketball, Football, whatever) in LA, Detroit, Tucson I still haven't figured that one out) and a host of other places. Should the Commanders of the Military have stepped in? Maybe. At the point the looting started did they know how the Iraqi citizens were going to react? They thought and hoped that the reaction would be appreciative at what the forces were there to do. I honestly think some of the forces on the ground (the troops, not the leaders) were in Military mode that they felt the looting was "justified" by the citizens in being rebelious against Saddam.

The inside jobs probably happend beforehand, when the leaders of IRaq wre lieing to the citizens and then running for cover. Kind of When Clinton took Air Force One AFTER he was no longer President and looted the silverware.

A far as my comment about wounding the looters. We had been conditioned from day one, to expect civilian casualties, it had been talked about and discussed and we had been promised that it would be kept to a minimum. We had not been conditioned to expect the troops to outright wound civilians. I can see the headlines from the leftist media "Marines cause Iraqi Citizen to lose limb because he fired a shot at him for stealing a vase out of a museum" Followed by "Marines stop Iraqi Citizens from taking back what they should be allowed to have." The looting is one of those no win situations for this side of the fence. If we had stopped it, we would have been chastised, we let it go and now we are being chastised.

On the same note, I've heard in the news that many of the museum items are being returned! I'll bet that has never happend in any of the what appear to be annual lootings in the States.

It is typical that a GW Bush supporter would have no appreciation of cultural issues. But we are talking about one of the 10 most important museums in the world, which maintained a collection of international antiquities dating back some 5,000 years.

Cultural this, Cultural that, I enjoy visiting the local Museum, and other Museums whenever I'm on the road, I enjoy the theatre and I believe that "Culture" has a place everywhere. I also think that we'll find out that most of those antiques had been stolen or looted, hell they could even be fake reproductions for all I know. The real stuff could show up in one of those walled in houses with millions of dollars that Saddam was keeping for himself.

Many of the items lost or destroyed are considered important to the WORLD at large, not just the Iraqi people. Our leaders had an obligation to at least attempt to protect them. To protect them from being bombed, only to let them be stolen or otherwise destroyed is the height of arrogance and stupidity.

Again, at the point the looting began, I believe that the military were in different modes and trying asses the situation. It could have been assesed that this looting was being done as a rebelious act against Saddam.

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by Arizona240z

Ok, the looting happend, just like it happens here when a College or Pro team wins the end of the season (Basketball, Football, whatever) in LA, Detroit, Tucson I still haven't figured that one out) and a host of other places. Should the Commanders of the Military have stepped in? Maybe. At the point the looting started did they know how the Iraqi citizens were going to react? They thought and hoped that the reaction would be appreciative at what the forces were there to do. I honestly think some of the forces on the ground (the troops, not the leaders) were in Military mode that they felt the looting was "justified" by the citizens in being rebelious against Saddam.

Looting a McDonald's or other business after a game is NOT the same thing as looting one of the world's most valued museums. If you read the article I posted, it is states that there was warning given that lootong of these places was a real possiblity, and had in fact occurred after the Gulf War. It was not unexpected.

I AM talking about the leadership of the military. No one who has ever served in the military could expect individual soldiers to jump in and do something without ORDERS their leadership. It is precisely this leadership (or lack thereof) that I am angry about.

Originally posted by Arizona240z

The inside jobs probably happend beforehand, when the leaders of IRaq wre lieing to the citizens and then running for cover. Kind of When Clinton took Air Force One AFTER he was no longer President and looted the silverware.

Some of the "inside jobs" undoubtably did happen prior to control of the area by USA forces, BUT much of it did not. That could and should have been prevented.

Originally posted by Arizona240z

A far as my comment about wounding the looters. We had been conditioned from day one, to expect civilian casualties, it had been talked about and discussed and we had been promised that it would be kept to a minimum. We had not been conditioned to expect the troops to outright wound civilians. I can see the headlines from the leftist media "Marines cause Iraqi Citizen to lose limb because he fired a shot at him for stealing a vase out of a museum" Followed by "Marines stop Iraqi Citizens from taking back what they should be allowed to have." The looting is one of those no win situations for this side of the fence. If we had stopped it, we would have been chastised, we let it go and now we are being chastised.

The headlines could just as easily have been " COALITION FORCE'S DEFEND IRAQI NATIONAL TREASURES FROM LOOTERS" or US SOLDIER'S SAVE PRICELESS ANTIQUITIES". Not all newspapers have such a negitive slant to reporting.

Originally posted by Arizona240z

On the same note, I've heard in the news that many of the museum items are being returned! I'll bet that has never happend in any of the what appear to be annual lootings in the States.

I also saw a report of items being returned, but it was very small items and not many of them.

Originally posted by Arizona240z

Cultural this, Cultural that, I enjoy visiting the local Museum, and other Museums whenever I'm on the road, I enjoy the theatre and I believe that "Culture" has a place everywhere. I also think that we'll find out that most of those antiques had been stolen or looted, hell they could even be fake reproductions for all I know. The real stuff could show up in one of those walled in houses with millions of dollars that Saddam was keeping for himself.

We'll never know if they were fakes or not, now that they have diappeared, will we. To allow them to disappear because the MAY have been fakes is not what was done.

Originally posted by Arizona240z

Again, at the point the looting began, I believe that the military were in different modes and trying asses the situation. It could have been assesed that this looting was being done as a rebelious act against Saddam.

Which would not make it acceptable in anyone's eyes. The leadership knew that these items were of extreme cultural importance to the Iraqi's and the world, but did nothing.