Interesting Historical Information Indicating Z was for US Market

[RIP260Z]

5 hours ago, 240260280 said:

Goertz worked a little on the first Nissan sports coupe that preceded the Z. He deserves some credit for this fact but the point made above is that he was gone by the end of '64.

But looking at what you had written, a picture of Goertz is just parachuted in with no context to why (which is my point). He had very little to do with Nissan as a whole, and for me I will keep on the csp side of things, you show a picture of Goertz, yet don't name the two far, far, more important people (can you name them?), who, had sooooo much more input into the CSP311, and Nissan as a whole. Compared to others who worked at Nissan, his (Goertz) input is just a footnote. His foot note is worthy, but why, oh why just that? Why does the foot-note get mentioned, rather than the book?

Its an American thing, oh come on. The S30 is a global car, with its home (Japanese) market and the (global) export market, its not just about the North American cars. There is soooo much info on all the models in the Z range (on here), why is the North American market (sales figures) makes it so much the.... ?

As I said, the story is sooo much more and you left so much behind, which for me leaves it biased. It is tricky to write something , and takes time. and being informed. If people don't, people pull you up on it, and question what is written.

 

30 minutes ago, psdenno said:

Has this topic turned into a "Mine is bigger than yours." contest?  I'm bored

Not for me. This like other forums can be viewed by anyone, info has to be correct, otherwise.....

More on the CSP "experiment".....the car was the first time Nissan had a synchro gearbox (under licence), disc brakes, hand assembled bespoke model, selling to a specific upmarket clientel (in Japan). The design team knew what they wanted to create from the start,  so some "experiment", which has produced one of Japan's most desired cars from the 1960's.

[240260280]

That was one of the last photos of Goertz' association with Nissan at the 1964 Tokyo Motor Show in October. His employment ended then.  The picture description is:

 

" End of the line for Goertz at Nissan: Oct 1964 Tokyo Motor Show (CSP-311 Silva Coupe) Note earliest 240z sketches were ~ 1 year later. "

 

The point is to highlight the time line and to highlight the point that he could not have been involved in the Z development.

[psdenno]

24 minutes ago, RIP260Z said:

1 hour ago, psdenno said:

Has this topic turned into a "Mine is bigger than yours." contest?  I'm bored

 

Not for me. This like other forums can be viewed by anyone, info has to be correct, otherwise.....

No problem with the history, info, and pictures presented.  It's the bickering, name dropping, and "I know more about Japan than you do..." that was getting a little too ugly to read.  No worries as it seems to be back on track.

Dennis

[HS30-H]

5 minutes ago, psdenno said:

No problem with the history, info, and pictures presented.  It's the bickering, name dropping, and "I know more about Japan than you do..." that was getting a little too ugly to read.  No worries as it seems to be back on track.

But you're perfectly happy with the "I know more about USA car culture than you do..." type statement that spawned it?

[psdenno]

12 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

But you're perfectly happy with the "I know more about USA car culture than you do..." type statement that spawned it?

Baiting?  Of the three of us, I believe I've LIVED USA car culture the most.  So, I win. 

[HS30-H]

32 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

" End of the line for Goertz at Nissan: Oct 1964 Tokyo Motor Show (CSP-311 Silva Coupe) Note earliest 240z sketches were ~ 1 year later. "

The point is to highlight the time line and to highlight the point that he could not have been involved in the Z development.

Two points: "...earliest 240Z sketches..." is cart before horse. Nissan weren't designing the "240Z". They were working on a project which would be named 'Maru Z', '270KK' (#270 Kaihatsu Kigou) and - finally - 'S30-series'. The Export models were not named '240Z' until the eleventh hour, and long after the Domestic models had been given their chosen names. 

Goertz got a namecheck in the Mizma Gikou blog you are quoting from, which connected him with the CSP311 Silvia. As has been pointed out, Goertz had minimal input on the CSP311 and yet you still - a little further up - credit him yourself as a major contributor (and - as has also been pointed out - the *real* designers/stylists/engineers are not mentioned). The blog also calls the CSP311 - in typical hyperbolic fashion - a failure. Anybody who writes it off as such has clearly missed the point. Pointing at 'low sales' as failure, when high sales were not actually envisioned - let alone possible due to the production methods - is another example of quite complex stories being presented in simplistic form. 

[240260280]

Heads in the sand boys...have a look at the big picture...not nit picking the little details that make no difference. Nissan focused on the USA market when making sports cars and the z was a continuation of this focus, as mentioned by many involved at the time and by the design changes made to accommodate the USA market.

[HS30-H]

7 hours ago, 240260280 said:

Heads in the sand boys...have a look at the big picture...not nit picking the little details that make no difference. Nissan focused on the USA market when making sports cars and the z was a continuation of this focus, as mentioned by many involved at the time and by the design changes made to accommodate the USA market.

But, for you, the "big picture" doesn't seem to include Japan, let alone the 'Global Market' that Nissan had ambitions to take a share of with ALL of their products.

Yes, great pains were taken to make the HLS30U 'Datsun 240Z' suitable for the North American market, and to price it at a level where maximum sales would cover reduced profit margins. But how does this translate to "Z was for US Market", the title of this thread?

Unquestionably, the S30-series Z was conceived, styled, designed, engineered and produced for multiple markets. What's the argument to the contrary, let alone the evidence?

[240260280]

I'm tired of this.  Just re-read the first few posts and consider the data and facts therein.  You will find "Interesting Historical Information Indicating Z was for US Market".

[26th-Z]

Couple of points:

Unless you guys claiming to have lived 'American car culture' are in your mid-seventies, no you didn't.

The Datsun 240 Z is an American import in every realm of the meaning associated with the 'American car culture'.  Nissan's export strategy wasn't any different than English and European export strategies at the time.  There's a reason for that and if you studied world history past the third grade, you would know.  Any association with 'exclusivity' is a thin thread on a drunken day.

Alan, I'm afraid your four aces of knowledge and perspective have been trumped by the intellectual insufficiency in which we find so persuasive from our society today.  My sympathies and condolences.

Finally, thanks for sharing the information, Blue.  There is quite a bit of interesting and useful information; my preference being the technical information, diagrams, graphs and charts.  Perhaps we could focus on our astonishment of how much thought, how many people, how much effort went into the design of the S30 to make it as successful as it became.

[RIP260Z]

Nobody can answer my points, why? To quote an American culture, Bueller?

So, if I post technical information, sales comparing the UK(RHD) and France (LHD) and graphs etc as a mirror of what has happened here, can I claim the "Z was made for the UK market"?

For me, its got nothing to do with "American culture" its about picked info for a biased read.

 

So, future readers, please read the original information with a cellar of salt. HS30-H for me, has added some of the "missing" material, and there is plenty more on this forum, without this biased.  All I want is a full picture.

[240260280]

More data related to Datsun/Nissan early sports car efforts in the 50's.  It is interesting in that Mr. K is involved and so are the Americans in Occupied Japan. Here is what he says:

 

 "The years after the Second World War were difficult for Japan, and the idea of a sports car, let alone its production, was far from anyone's mind. I was, however, invited by the officers of the sports car club of the US occupation force  in Japan to participate, and then to lead, the Sports Car Club of Japan. I soon realised the importance of the sports car to the automobile industry and remembered the intent of Ayukawa (the Chairman of Nissan in the pre-war years) of offering a sports car as Nissan's flagship.

"By the time of the first Tokyo Motor Show in 1952, in my role as Nissan's Advertising Manager I arranged for a sports car body to be designed and manufactured by Yuichi Ohta. This body was to be attached to a Datsun truck chassis. This was the first sports model to be produced after the war by any Japanese company. Although this was largely my private project, Nissan agreed to build a production version, and this became officially named the Datsun Sports DC-3. One of the first production models is still proudly shown in the entrance hall of Nissan today."