L24 Battles Six S20's. Guess who wins?

[grannyknot]

7 hours ago, HS30-H said:

You are - quite simply - completely out of your depth. What - really - what value is there in your first post on this topic? That 'diamond rings and oil paintings' meme is all about the road cars. It still holds true (and don't forget it's usually an answer to somebody telling us that the 432 is "sh*t"). You get something put in front of you about one particular Japanese race (apparently it's news to you too...) and it's like you just realised that a G-Shock tells the time better than a Girard Perregaux. Hold the front page, huh? Perhaps there's a parallel-universe style scenario on a Porsche forum somewhere with somebody saying that the 2 litre Porsche 911R was "dumped" because the 2.7RS was "better". Hopefully the Porsche forum has one or two people who understand just how stupid that is...  

As for my comments regarding the real story behind that particular race (the context following tragedy...) you seem to have - once again - missed the point. Who said "the winner should not be taken into account"? Not me. Do you know what I'm referring to? My guess is that you have no clue.

 

I have never said the 432 is sh*t and I never would, that is just you overstating things again. But the 432 is not special either, maybe a notch above average. I was convinced of that before I read the the first post of this thread and just as convinced of it now, although the knowledge of that win for the for the L24 is a tasty little cherry.

I know you want believe the 432 was/is extraordinary and you desperately want everyone else to believe that too, but the fact that you seem to be so afraid of is out and all anyone has to do is   READ   THE   NUMBERS.  Those numbers tell the real story, just a notch above average.

Blue, great detective work again, apologies for cluttering up your thread.

 

[HS30-H]

4 minutes ago, grannyknot said:

I have never said the 432 is sh*t and I never would, that is just you overstating things again. But the 432 is not special either, maybe a notch above average. I was convinced of that before I read the the first post of this thread and just as convinced of it now, although the knowledge of that win for the for the L24 is a tasty little cherry.

I know you want believe the 432 was/is extraordinary and you desperately want everyone else to believe that too, but the fact that you seem to be so afraid of is out and all anyone has to do is   READ   THE   NUMBERS.  Those numbers tell the real story, just a notch above average.

Blue, great detective work again, apologies for cluttering up your thread.

 

Newsflash for Grannyknot: The race in question was won by a 432-R pretending to be a 240Z so that it didn't get disqualified. You seem to have overlooked the fact that L24-engined cars weren't around to take part in the first ever race contested by an S30-series Z, or the first race won by an S30-series Z (READ THE NUMBERS). If you think you knew better you could pop back to 1969 and tell Nissan just how silly they were being putting Murayama's precious engine into their new American Sports Car as it would only lead to tears and confusion. 

And really, if the first post in this thread convinced you of anything it only goes to show that you didn't know enough to come to a view in the first place.

The facts don't belong to me, and whatever I say about the 432/432-R won't change what they were, what they were homologated to achieve, what they did actually achieve in period and what they mean in context today. It's a key part of the S30-series Z story, despite the efforts of people like yourself who seem to want to diminish it for some unknown reason? What's that all about, really? Isn't it just the fact that you don't like the usual messenger?

How about you pop up on one of Kats' threads and tell him his 432 is "not special"...? See how that pans out for you. My prediction is that you might find a few people to 'Like This' but not a lot else will happen. Don't worry though, you're not alone as you have a fantasy conspirator in my parallel universe Porsche thread. He's busy telling everyone that the Porsche 911R (Nissan's reference point for the 432-R) was also "not special", with similar reaction... 

[RyanT67]

HS30-H, you're like the Gregory House of Z car forums.  What you lack in bedside manner, you more than make up for in expertise, haha.  Thanks for the information dump

[Mike]

On 1/15/2017 at 10:31 PM, 240260280 said:

If someone could help better translate this then it could improve the accuracy.

 

確認できた事で一定の成果を収めたレースと見る事ができた。 この結果を受けZ432の開発は急テンポで

進められると考えられていたが わずか半年後の富士1000ｋｍにはダットサンスポーツ２４０Ｚが登場。

４バルブＤＯＨＣの２リッターではなく２バルブＳＯＨＣの２．４リッターが選ばれた形だ。 Ｒ３８０の直系の

Ｓ２０型ファンにとっては落胆を隠せない出来事だったが たまたまシリーズの選択肢に２．４Ｌエンジンを

持っていたフェアレディＺならではの結果である。 「排気量が同じなら当然Ｓ２０型を選ぶ事になるがＬ２４型が

持つ400ｃｃの排気量差は大きかったね。 トルクの絶対値が大きく しかも中速域からトルクがあるからＬ２４型

の方がレースに向いていた」とは この年から日産に戻った長谷見昌弘。 「まったく他の車両がいない状態で

コースを回るのなら当時のＳ２０型とＬ２４型ではそれほど差は無かったと思うが混戦の中で常にラインを変えて

走らなければならない実戦ではトルク型のＬ２４型エンジンは大きな武器になった」と言う。 Ｌ型エンジンを

使う２４０Ｚにはもうひとつ大きなメリットがあった。 メカニズムがシンプルだったためメンテナンスやチューニングの

作業に関してＳ２０型のような高度な技術（といってもレース用であるためそれなりのレベルは必要だが）を

必要とせず チューナー単位で運用する事が可能なエンジンだったのである。 ＧＴ-Ｒが現役を退いた後

プライベーターに２４０Ｚが支持された理由はこうした点にあり ７０年代のモータースポーツを支える貴重な

戦闘力となっていた。 ２４０Ｚの開発に終始関わってきた長谷見昌弘が最後に興味深いコメントを残してくれた。

「実を言えばＺはあまりボディ剛性が高くなかった。ボディ剛性という点ではＧＴ-Ｒのハードトップボディの方が

良かった」Ｚの話をするべきなのだがＧＴ-Ｒのハードトップボディがレーシングユースまで見越したものだった

ことには改めて感心させられる。 「レースの日産」の呼び名はやはり伊達ではない事を思い知らされる。

この時代で言えば特に旧プリンス系の人たちだが ここから十数年を経てＲ32ＧＴ-Ｒに繋がっていくのだから

やはり敬服せざるを得ない。

一端表立った活動を控える７０年代の中後半はその存在は希薄だったと解釈できるのだが プライベーターによる

モタースポーツ活動の灯を絶やさぬようにその下地作りを行ったという点では日産ワークスが行った２４０Ｚの

開発・熟成作業は非常に大きな意味を持っていたのである。

Here's the translation:

I was able to see it as a race that achieved certain results by being able to confirm it. Based on this result, the development of Z432 is in a steady tempo

Although it was thought to be advanced, Datsun Sports 240Z appeared in Fuji 1000 km just six months later.

Not a 2 liter of 4 valve DOHC but 2.4 liter of 2 valve SOHC was chosen. Direct line of R380

For S20 type fans, it was an event that can not hide disappointment, but happened to be a series option, 2.4L engine

It is a result unique to Fairlady Z which I had. "If the displacement is the same, it will obviously choose the S20 type, but the L24 type

The difference in displacement of 400 cc that you have is great. Since the absolute value of the torque is large and there is torque from the medium speed range, L24

It was more suitable for racing, "said Masahiro Haseyami who returned to Nissan from this year. "With no other vehicles at all

If I go around the course I think that there was not much difference between the S20 type and the L24 type at the time but always changing the line in the midst of battle

Torque type L24 type engine became a big weapon in the actual battle to run. " L type engine

There is another great merit in the 240 Z to use. Because the mechanism was simple, maintenance and tuning

With regard to work on advanced technology like S20 type (although it is for racing reasonable level is necessary)

It was an engine that can be operated on a tuner basis without needing it. After GT-R retires from active service

The reason why 240 Z was supported by the private sector is that it is precious in this respect that supports the motor sports of the 70's

It was a fighting power. Masahiro Haseyami, who has been involved in the development of the 240Z for the last time, left us an interesting comment at the end.

"To tell the truth, Z was not very high in body rigidity, and in terms of body rigidity, the hard top body of GT-R

It should be good to talk about Z, but the hard top body of GT-R was anticipating racing youth

I am impressed again. The name of "Nissan of the race" is noticed that it is not Date as well.

Speaking of this era, people of the former Prince family, especially since it will lead to R32 GT-R after ten years from here

You can not but admire it.

In the latter half of the 1970s which refrains from expressive activities, it can be interpreted that its existence was sparse, but it depends on private

In terms of making the foundation so as not to stop the lamps of the motorsport activities, Nissan Works made the 240 Z

The development and aging work had a very significant meaning.

[Australi_Yan]

Hey everyone. Thanks Alan for introducing me to this forum. 

What Alan said about the home prepped cars is very interesting. I was recently in a conversation with a man who's father raced a home built Z. His racing career ended like Sakurais. 
Interesting to think about that at the time a stock 432 demanded a much higher price than a standard L equipped Z. Now the men building these cars at home did not always have the budget to race with 432s. Some of the L series cars were built on a very low specs with low budget that barely made the cut. Where as factory cars were built with no holds barred. Even though these cars were built for the same category where they really built to the same level? 


Personally I think you should not base the success of a car on a single race. Nor the legacy they leave behind due to it. Racers have bad days and good days. Just like how the Ferrari had a 1st, 2nd, 3rd finish at Daytona with the P4's during a time when they were not considered a main competitor. Does this make the P4 a good car? Not really. They never achieved the same wins that they did in 67 ever again. Respect the car for what it is. Winner or looser. 

Unfortunately we will never know which is the "better" engine but at least it allows us to have conversations like this hah. 


 

[HS30-H]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Here's the translation:

 

Thanks for the effort Mike, but machine translation of Japanese to English is still in the stone age when it comes down to stuff like this and the results are proof of that.

As I pointed out before, that's a personal - one man - blog. The subject requires much deeper research from wider sources in order to be properly understood. 

[240260280]

Ultimately an L24 engine won it's first race, which was a long endurance race on a hot day.

It proved itself with the excellent support of the Oppama Team's effort to prepare the car and engine along with the benefit of good driving and good luck during the long race.

It very interesting to also know the rivalry between the two Nissan plants because this certainly raised the stakes and will shed light on all of the races during the period when the L24 debuted.

All L24 owners should be proud of their engine's racing history.

 

[240260280]

More content, photos, and revisions/corrections to the first post.

[HS30-H]

5 hours ago, 240260280 said:

Ultimately an L24 engine won it's first race...

So, you think this was the L24's first race...?

[240260280]

So far. Nothing absolute in this world.

[HS30-H]

14 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

So far. Nothing absolute in this world.

You've gone off half-cocked. You started out with a certain premise, but had little to no understanding of the context surrounding the race in question or the bigger scenario behind it. Fail.

I think you need to do a LOT more in-depth research before trying the same trick again.

[240260280]

I am doing the best I can.  It seems to be of interest to others as well. There is very little Japanese racing content on this site so I am adding.

You are most welcome to contribute information to improve accuracy, etc. I will amend as required.

wrt the L24's first outing.  I am basing it on the data from the JAF site.... just as I based a similar post on the 240z's first north American outings on published data on a site dedicated to racing results. 

It is all a first pass subject to revisions as new information and corrections come in.

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by 240260280