L24 Battles Six S20's. Guess who wins?

[Gav240z]

6 hours ago, 240260280 said:

Although the engine is a counter flow SOHC, it was superior in durability & serviceability, and it was said that it is superior to the Z432

Can't tell if serious?

[HS30-H]

16 hours ago, 240260280 said:

The speed increased using 240 Z's L24 engine instead of the S20 engine from Z432

 

The engine in question:

[240260280]

　最先端技術を投入したレーシングエンジンのS20型より、ローテクな大排気量で、乗りやすい実用エンジンのL24型エンジンを搭載したクルマの方がパフォーマンスが高かったというのはちょっと皮肉な話だが、これも日産が2つのタイプのエンジンを持ち、スカイラインGT-RとフェアレディZを同時期に作っていたからこそ分かったこと。

 

Posted on April 12, 2019 Posted by: "Auto Messe Web Editorial Department" TEXT: Ryuta Fujita PHOTO: Takahiro Masuda

 

 

Rare cars on display at the Automobile Council

In the history of domestic cars, there have been two years when performance and quality suddenly jumped. That is 1969, 1989, 20 years later. Speaking of the protagonists in 1969 when the times changed, there were two Nissan Fairlady Z (S30 type) and the first Skyline GT-R (PGC10 type).

The Nissan booth of “AUTOMOBILE COUNCIL 2019” which closed last week will commemorate the 50th anniversary of the birth of both cars. Exhibit Skyline GT-R (reconstructed vehicle) of No. 39 that won the championship. We were able to confirm the origin of the sports car that Nissan is proud of.

 

 

Car No. 39 won the first win of the Skyline 49 consecutive wins

Another Skyline GT-R is a car that was born to win the race against Fairlady Z's “Minna no Sports Car”.

The first "Nissan Skyline" (GC10 series), which appeared first after Prince Motors and Nissan merged, is equipped with the Prince racing car R380 DOHC engine and the GR8 detuned version = S20 engine. The name of the GT-R was given as the world's first high-performance sedan for touring car racing equipped with the world's first 4-valve DOHC engine. It is also very interesting that these two units debuted in 1969 from the same manufacturer.

This 39th car won the 1969 JAF Grand Prix, the first GT-R team. This is a restoration of the machine that recorded the first win of Hakoska's 49 consecutive wins (52 wins in total).

The rival is Toyota 1600GT (corona's high-performance version), and in fact this 1600GT also received a top checker with a 1.19 second difference, but it became a penalty of 1 lap subtraction by judging that the runway was obstructed to the final lap, GT- R went up and won. The GT-R ran in the TS class of the undercard, so the handle was entrusted to the clubman driver, not the works driver.

The strength of GT-R is the strongest 2-liter engine with 160 horsepower, the S20 engine itself. In order to suppress twisting of the crankshaft at high revolutions, a side bolt combined system unique to racing engines is adopted. The crankshaft bearing cap is fastened to the cylinder block from the left and right in addition to the bottom. The head bolts were twice as many as the L20 type of the same straight 6 engine.

The carbs consist of 3 Solex (40PHH). There were also Solex 44PHH and Weber (45DCOE) as racing options, and it was a high-tech lever engine at that time (engine unit price = 700,000 yen). Moreover, since it was a typical high-speed engine, I hear that it is refreshing below 4000 rpm.

Although the Toyota 2000GT was a rival, it also raced the Z432 with the same S20 engine in a Fairlady Z S30 chassis; but the 240Z, with the L24 type 2.4 liter straight 6 SOHC engine had more torque making it best.

It is a bit ironic that the performance of the L24 engine, which is a low-tech, large displacement. practical engine, was better than the S20 racing engine, with the latest, and more advanced technology.

Edited December 11, 2019 by 240260280

[HS30-H]

Original, intact, unbowdlerised and un-Hoovered article:

https://www.automesseweb.jp/2019/04/12/132917

Machine translations from Japanese to English still leave a lot to be desired, but remember...  cr*p in = cr*p out.

Mistakes and uninformed opinion are available in most languages. At least the original looks better...

[240260280]

From BRE artical in Classic Motorsports magazine:

 

 

On early L24 crank failures and possibly why the L24 did not race in Japan until this was sorted:

Explaining what put Nissan in this situation requires a wider look. Unlike the high-revving Prince Z 432 engine intended for the Japanese-market Fairlady race car, the 240Z’s new American-market, six-cylinder engines had never been designed for or even expected to see competition.

Nissan’s management, including Katayama, was completely unaware that American racing rules required the use of engines and components as delivered in their production cars and sold to the public. Unlike most international racing regulations, the SCCA’s didn’t allow special, factory-built racing engines or components.

Since Nissan had simply assumed that the Prince engine would be used in America for racing, the new L-series was never tested at high rpm. Without realizing the situation, Nissan had put its reputation–along with Mr. K’s–at serious risk.

[HS30-H]

51 minutes ago, 240260280 said:

On early L24 crank failures and possibly why the L24 did not race in Japan until this was sorted:

Explaining what put Nissan in this situation requires a wider look. Unlike the high-revving Prince Z 432 engine intended for the Japanese-market Fairlady race car, the 240Z’s new American-market, six-cylinder engines had never been designed for or even expected to see competition.

Nissan’s management, including Katayama, was completely unaware that American racing rules required the use of engines and components as delivered in their production cars and sold to the public. Unlike most international racing regulations, the SCCA’s didn’t allow special, factory-built racing engines or components.

Since Nissan had simply assumed that the Prince engine would be used in America for racing, the new L-series was never tested at high rpm. Without realizing the situation, Nissan had put its reputation–along with Mr. K’s–at serious risk.

You're just scatter-shooting again. Where's your critique of the content? You post it as though you believe every word.

Isn't this the same Classic Motorsports Magazine article that implied BRE 'discovered' the L24 crank harmonic problem and 'reported' it to Nissan Japan, hence taking some credit for the re-design of the crank and the 'cure'? We've been through all this before of course (Deja Vu all over again...) but Nissan knew about the problem - and already had the re-designed crank going into production and testing - before BRE had received their first 240Z. 

As for your "...early L24 crank failures and possibly why the L24 did not race in Japan until this was sorted", this doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny, does it? Well before mid 1969 Nissan had already put in place their plans for racing and rallying the new S30-series Z range. That's why the 432-R existed in the first place, and why Nissan was putting together a program of International rallying for the 240Z (they were testing a PZR-bodied, L24R-engined works rally mule on the Monte Carlo Rallye route in January 1970), all of which made sense for its domestic and export marketing strategies.

The article's "...the 240Z’s new American-market, six-cylinder engines had never been designed for or even expected to see competition." is ill-informed USA-centric twaddle, isn't it? 

 

 

[240260280]

The L series I6 engines were first used in the Cedrics long before the 240z. These were basically taxi cars... not racing chassis like the S20 was designed for.

It is simple: torque, displacement, reliability are what made the L24 an eventual winner once Nissan resolved the crank harmonics. The crank problem was first displayed in public by BRE and Sharp engine failures during racing. We only have a limited view of what was going on behind the scenes in Nissan to identify and resolve the problem, but the crank change during production in January is one clue that it occurred well before the sharp and BRE failures. This fact seems to support their statements that no one in Nissan alerted them of the early crank racing risk.... otherwise they could have swapped the cranks out in February.  All of this is well documented.

 

1966 Cedric

 

[kats]

12 hours ago, 240260280 said:

　最先端技術を投入したレーシングエンジンのS20型より、ローテクな大排気量で、乗りやすい実用エンジンのL24型エンジンを搭載したクルマの方がパフォーマンスが高かったというのはちょっと皮肉な話だが

It is a bit ironic that the performance of the L24 engine, which is a low-tech, large displacement. practical engine, was better than the S20 racing engine, with the latest, and more advanced technology.

This interprit contains not correct part, and I see also Japanese text is not right , Mr.Fujita should select Japanese words correctly .

The point is , there is no stock L24 which has better paformance than the racing S20 ,  Never . (We know L type engine was born from practical parents , S20 engine was born from racing parents ) .

Maybe people want to disrespect S20 in some reason , but a stock L24 and a stock S20 are almost same performance.

A racing L24 and a racing S20 are almost same performance.

The one has more capacity , the other has more advanced technology. That's it .

They both are awsome engine ,  just enjoy each "feelings" , "flavor" .

I haven't heard from S20 owners saying "my S20 is better than the L20 , 24... , etc. 

Kats

 

[HS30-H]

3 hours ago, 240260280 said:

The L series I6 engines were first used in the Cedrics long before the 240z. These were basically taxi cars... not racing chassis like the S20 was designed for.

1966 Cedric

 

That's a 130-P model Cedric with an H20 4cyl engine running on LPG.

[HS30-H]

4 hours ago, 240260280 said:

The L series I6 engines were first used in the Cedrics long before the 240z. These were basically taxi cars... not racing chassis like the S20 was designed for.

"Taxi cars"? The L20 six was launched in the H130 Cedric 'Special Six' model. It was a flagship model. You would have had a hard time finding one being used as a taxi. What's the point you are trying to make here? 

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/HERITAGE/cedric_special_6_1965.html

 

4 hours ago, 240260280 said:

The crank problem was first displayed in public by BRE and Sharp engine failures during racing. We only have a limited view of what was going on behind the scenes in Nissan to identify and resolve the problem, but the crank change during production in January is one clue that it occurred well before the sharp and BRE failures. This fact seems to support their statements that no one in Nissan alerted them of the early crank racing risk.... otherwise they could have swapped the cranks out in February.  All of this is well documented.

"Thanks Mr K...!"

I think the statement in bold is making some presumptions about the lines of communication, and who was responsible for what. The Pete Brock-penned Classic Motorsports BRE article states that BRE (maybe Sharp too?) 'reported their findings to the factory', but I would find it surprising if the lines of communication at the time allowed BRE and/or Sharp direct communication with "the factory" at all, let alone Nissan's engine design divisions. I think it would be much more likely that they were either firing missives off to Nissan departments unknown, in English, or simply reporting to NMC USA.

So what was the purpose of quoting the clearly inaccurate Classic Motorsports article?   

[Sean Dezart]

Alan - were there no Zs of any form raced in Japan before 1970 ?

https://www.racingsportscars.com/races/search.html?coun=J&year=1969

https://www.racingsportscars.com/races/search.html?coun=J&year=1970

Might the two cars in the photo : red no.8 and blue no.19 be invitational entries at...Fuji  - testing ? They're certainly up against and apparently well-placed on the grid against some very serious competition.

[HS30-H]

2 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

Alan - were there no Zs of any form raced in Japan before 1970 ?

Simple answer, no. Nothing official anyway. If anyone wants to include a stoplight grand prix then maybe...

 

2 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

Might the two cars in the photo : red no.8 and blue no.19 be invitational entries at...Fuji  - testing ?

The photos are from the 'All Japan Fuji 300 Mile' race at Fuji Speedway on 7th June 1970.

A rather complicated points race system, the race was run in two heats (each at 40 laps, giving 150 miles) and the overall result was a combined total of points from the two heats, intended to give a chance to all competitors.

The blue #19 car was Saburo KOINUMA's privateer 432, and he finished 5th overall and Class 3 winner. The orange #8 car was Kazuyoshi HOSHINO's Works 432-R. 

2 hours ago, Sean Dezart said:

They're certainly up against and apparently well-placed on the grid against some very serious competition.

That's not the starting grid. It's the main paddock area at Fuji and they are waiting whilst one of the minor supporting races is run.