Time to sell my Z. What's she worth?

[FastWoman]

Hi everyone,

I know I haven't been here for ages -- about 18 months now, I believe.  As some of you know, life has jumped up and bit me in the rear.  My partner is dealing with some serious medical issues, we've been downsizing, and I no longer have any time for my '78 Z.  We have two fun cars, and the other is a 1st gen Miata.  Convertibles aren't really my thing, but my partner really loves that car and hates hardtops.  So between the Z and the Miata, it's always the Miata we take for a drive, while my baby sits in the garage unloved.  And now that we are downsizing, one of the two cars has to go.  It's entirely my decision, because my partner understands how much I love my Z.  However, I feel the decision needs to be to keep the Miata and sell the Z.  (I do like the Miata too.  It's a lot of fun to drive, just windy and with much less "cool" factor.)

So I'm trying to come up with a fair price.  I know what I bought her for, and I know what I have in her.  However, I also understand what sort of investment it would take to restore her to her full glory.  What I don't know is how the Z market has changed since I've been gone.  I'm rather surprised that the 280 is now getting much more love, and even the 280ZX is starting to come into its own.  So I think the market has definitely changed.  I just don't know how much.  I'm hoping my friends here can help me out in that area.

By way of full disclosure, there are two people on this forum who are interested in buying my car.  One of them plans to travel here on the weekend of the 24th.  Y'all have been advising him (very well, with great sobriety) about Z cars he might find.  So I suppose you might be advising both of us at the same time.  The other party seems to be more of a Datsun (and Porsche) veteran and has pretty clear expectations.  Anyway, if you have a few moments, you could help both/all of us out tremendously.

About my baby...

My Z was a little bit rusty when I got her -- nothing structural, a few rust bubbles in the hatch jamb, a bad rust spot on one of the rear fenders, and some bubbles starting to form on the upper doors, just beneath the stainless trim strip.  The engine ran "OK," but not great.  Since then, I've put a lot of work into all the mechanicals, and many of you know exactly what my journey was like.  Now, on a scale from 1 to 10 for a stock 280Z, I'd say she's mechanically and electrically a 9.5.  On the other hand, the rust has gotten worse, despite the car being mostly garaged and not driven in the rain or snow.  The strengths of her body are that she is very straight, never having been wrecked, and her underbody is quite rust-free.  The underbody was rust-proofed as a part of a prior restoration, but the rust proofing is starting to chip away (leaving rather pristine looking paint exposed).  The current paint job is pretty decent.  It's not one of those Earl Scheib / Maaco spray-down jobs with flaking bondo.  Rather, it was done right, with removal of rubber, trim, parts prior to painting, original color, proper prep work, etc.  The engine compartment and jambs were not repainted, so this wasn't a rotisserie job either!

I have three videos that show the car's current condition:

The first is of a cold start after a few days of sitting.  I want to emphasize that the car has sat quite a lot, and the fuel is a couple of months old now.  The temp today was about freezing.  Even so, the engine started effortlessly, as always.  The engine took about twice as long to fire at this temperature as it would ordinarily take during warmer weather, but not any longer than our 2009 Ram or 2010 Mazda CX-7.  Anyway, here is the startup:

https://youtu.be/j5AyXkJLdhY

Next, I video'ed the interior.  I think it is difficult to shoot a black interior with a smart phone camera, but I think you can see the needed details.  The interior has a half dash cap.  No interior pieces are missing, except that I have to repair the right hand A-pillar trim piece.  The previous owner replaced the carpeting, and it all looks great.  The only deficient items are the two seats and perhaps the worn leather wrapping on the steering wheel.  See here:

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/gsbkHa_Wdu4

 

 

Finally, I shot a video of the condition of the body, with special emphasis on the rust areas.  The video seems fairly clear, but sometimes I can’t be heard well over the engine/exhaust (sorry).  The frame rails, floor pans, and under-body are all in great shape.  The frame rails have some minor denting (I think they all do), but they are rust free.  The doors have a bit of penetrating rust and require some repair.  I believe one would be good with a bit of filler.  The other will require a bit of new metal to welded into the bottom.  The wheel arches are mostly good, with a couple of trouble spots.  The rocker panels are in wonderful condition.  The vent cowl and the plate in the lower hatch jamb need replacement.  I remember the vent piece is available for somewhat over $100 new.  I think the other piece might be available for approx. the same price.  The rear bumper is badly rusted above the exhaust, but I have another bumper in much better condition that I haven’t had time to mount yet.  Here is the tour of the body:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mirralLejeo&feature=youtu.be

 

More details:

The intake (EVERYTHING from the air cleaner to the studs and bolts attaching the intake manifold to the head) have been restored, using all stainless hardware.  Modifications are all minor and are all of a “functional” nature, and nothing is irreversible:  The exhaust is new – MSA aluminized exhaust, modified with a mid-pipe Magnaflow resonator for a bit of civility (as I don’t like loud exhaust).  HEI ignition retrofit, but wiring is preserved for the original ignition.  Headlight wiring upgraded with relays.  Fusible links replaced with Maxi Fuses.  The engine runs great – starts up within a fraction of a second and runs strong.  Has the typical hot restart issue, but not badly.  This issue pretty much goes away when running the non-ethanol gasoline for which it was designed.  New brakes.  Gas tank is in superb condition.  This is a car I don’t hesitate to take around town or on the highway to another city.  It’s a car you can easily/safely/comfortably drive back home to NC.  I keep my service records on an excel spreadsheet.  Please see attached.

So, my friends, what do you think?  What's a fair price for my baby?

 

[240260280]

You may consider selling the Z and Miata to get an S2000.  A nice compromise.

[Patcon]

Sarah,

It is nice to here from you even for this reason...

Do you have a starting point for what you think the car is worth or what you want out of it?

NA Miata's are a lot of fun. We had one. With a little more horsepower they would be hard to beat for the money

[Jeff G 78]

Good to see you back, but I hate to see you sell your Z.  Great job on the videos.  They are honest and believable with no attempts at overselling the car.  

After seeing the rust issues and subsequent repair threads on several members' cars (Wheee! for example), your car is in very good shape and would be fairly easy to bring back to excellent condition.  The buyer would be best off swapping the doors and then cutting out and replacing the rust on the hatch panel and quarter.  The rest is easy.  The underbody looks great which is by far the most important place to be clean.

That said, the market for late S30's is still soft, so it's not going to be worth a lot of money at this point in time.  That could change in the future, but not right now.  My best guess for pricing based on the current condition and potential condition is probably in the $4000 - $5000 range.  I'm sure the car runs great and looks good from 20 feet, but rust repair and paint aren't cheap.  If it was a 240Z, the value would likely be double.  Your Z is very presentable, so it could be purchased and driven as-is or restored to show quality.  Many Z's with similar rust are ratty looking, so you certainly have that going for you.  Mechanically, it is far better than most, but as we all know, it costs more to fix rust on Z cars than to fix mechanical issues.

Good luck and I hope you either decide to keep it, or sell it now and rejoin the Z community someday.

[FastWoman]

240260280, the Miata alone is worth about $5000.  It's pristine.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Patcon,

Good to see you!  I've neglected all my friends here... 

Well, I bought the car for $6200 back in 2009.  The car came with Panosports and 4 original wheels in a box.  The mouse nest on the top of the engine also conveyed.  I think this was a semi-barn find.  The previous owner bought it nicely fixed up 12 years previously and didn't drive it much.  He did put a nice coat of wax on it before putting it up for sale, though.  He also did some interior work, such as replacing the headliner and carpet (nice workmanship).  To his credit, he had the car professionally maintained throughout by the local Nissan dealership.  The mechanic was an old-timer who knew these cars well.  However, the PO was also frugal with needed repairs.  For instance, he was very proud that he had taken the car to the dealer to replace ONE leaking injector.

Since then I've replaced a lot of parts (entire exhaust, alternator, injectors, starter, fuel pump, fuel pump check valve, EGR valve, all hoses, belts, body seals, AACV, radiator, fan clutch, thermostat, brake calipers, rotors, rear cylinders, shoes, all door locks, windshield washer, oil sender, distributor, tachometer board, instrument lights, fusible links (with Maxi Fuse assembly).  And then I completely overhauled the fuel/intake system.  So it's a completely different car mechanically than when I bought it.

My feeling is that the body has deteriorated in the rust department as much as it has improved mechanically.  The rusty areas today were showing early signs when I bought her, so the same work needed doing then as needs doing now.  (It's just more obvious now.)  She still gets a lot of compliments and wistful looks, and she's still a beautiful machine!

The thing is that I don't really have a sense about how much these cars have appreciated since 8 years ago.  I was always more concerned with restoring my car than with tracking its value, so I didn't really pay much attention.  And then I've been completely out of touch since August 2015.

What I want out of my car is whatever is fair.  I don't have to make any budget or make an investment pay off.  I don't need the money.  However, the reality is that I must sell her now, while I have garage space, or she will be doomed to sit in the driveway after we sell two properties by the end of this month.  My garage space is disappearing FAST!

[FastWoman]

Thanks, Jeff!  Good to see you, BTW!  I think the price point you suggest would be hard psychologically, but I appreciate the input.  It's hard for me to weigh this issue without a certain emotional investment and bias.  That said, I was just offered $6k for the car and turned it down long enough to get some feedback here.  Perhaps one contributing factor is that this is an East Coast car.  You pay a bit more for less on this side of the country.  Of course I realize you're from Michigan, so I'm sure it's the same story there.

[Jeff G 78]

Sarah, After posting my estimate, I have spent some time searching various CL cities around the country and I was about to come back and edit my post to raise my estimate.  For $4k - $5k as I suggested, I found lots of cars that were possibly less rusty than yours (based on the sellers' opinions of condition), but much rattier overall and certainly worse mechanically than your car.  I think $6000+ would be a better estimate given your underbody and mechanicals.  That said, the sellers are ASKING those prices.  I don't know what they are actually getting for their Z's.  I hope you get what you want and need for your car, believe me!  I have a rust-free '78 with an all-new suspension, rebuilt engine, a nice interior, and beautiful Panasports.  My car does need paint before I would consider it presentable, but I would have guessed my car to be in the $7500 range as-is.  Maybe I'm underestimating the 280Z market...

As for location, I gave up on rusty cars a long time ago and now I travel to whatever part of the country it takes to get a clean car.  I find it cheaper to travel than to fix rust.  :-)  

Edited March 18, 2017 by Jeff G 78

[FastWoman]

Jeff, I was at one time looking for an '82/83 ZX NA, because of it being Z-like (same drive train, sort of) and having a T-top to satisfy my partner's yearning for a convertible.  I traveled quite a bit looking at these cars and gave up.  The reason was that all the "rust free" cars I went to see had penetrating rust bubbles in difficult places (e.g. the leading edge of the roof, and the non-removable vent cowl area).  One fellow even had me drive across 2 states to have me see his rust heap that was barely running ("runs great").  When I pointed to the very obvious rust bubbles peppering the roof, he shrugged and said, "yeah, rust bubbles."  PISSED ME OFF -- because I asked him several times whether there were any rust bubbles in that very area, and he repeatedly insisted, "no."  So there's some advantage to local, IMO.  You can run yourself ragged looking for a good Z in far-off lands, only to come away empty handed or buying something less than you expected expect.  Of course if you enjoy the thrill of the hunt, then none of this applies.  ;-)

As far as market value for a 280Z...  Well, I've looked at completed auctions (at least the ones that actually sold) on eBay, and I'm shocked at some of what I see.  I see a lot of bodies that need as much work as mine, with ratty interiors and "runs good" engines selling in the $6k range, and my car is much better than that.  That's where I have to admit I'm out of touch, hence my question here.  My "feeling" is that $6200 would be fair in a flat market, but I'm seeing signs the market hasn't been flat.

[Jeff G 78]

So, again, I searched CL.  This time, the west coast and desert areas of the Southwest.  Yikes!  Even the San Diego, Vegas, and LA cars now have some rust on them!  They are all asking big bucks too!  I guess with 240's getting out of reach, the later S30's are now rising too.  I did find a few pristine looking 280's in the sub-$10k range, but they were usually autos.  

[FastWoman]

Yeah, exactly!  (Whoa!)  I think the 280 might be the new 240.  ;-)

Well, I'm off ta' bed.  It's been a loooong day.  Looking forward to reconnecting with a few more friends here.  Wonderful group of people!  :-)

'Nite!

Sarah

[Jeff G 78]

I completely agree with you on sellers' claims.  Back in the old days before the internet, I drove all over the damn place looking at cars that were billed as rust-free or close to it.  They must have been soaking in the ocean between the phone calls and my arrival at their houses because more often than not, the cars were complete crap that were nothing more than parts cars.  Uggghhhh.  At least these days we can request close-up photos before we go look at cars.

[FastWoman]

240260280...  LOL!  I thought you were saying to sell the Miata and Z for $2000.  I have an appointment in about a month to see an eye doctor about that (seriously).  I've thought about other cars like the S2000, but I don't know if I will ever "LOVE" another car the way I do the 280Z.  Even my all-time dream car, a V12 Jag XK-E, would be too precious to drive and enjoy.  I have to drive the car to enjoy it.  Polishing it lovingly as it sits in the garage just doesn't do it for me.  There are a couple of fairly affordable hardtop convertibles that would be more to my liking than a ragtop, but convertibles of all stripes are leaky and not too secure.  (I like being able to lock my car.)  I think a T-top would be a nice compromise, but finding a fairly rust-free T-top is darned near impossible.  And most T-tops are American sports/"sporty" cars that don't hold as much interest to me.  A targa top would be another nice option, but those are few and far between.  I do like the Miata, though.  If I'm going to have a leaky, insecure car, I could do a lot worse.  Oil filter changes are a PITA, though!