at wits end

[sweatybetty]

ok, here are some pics.

#1 at tdc

rotor at #1 with distributor centered in adjustment range

and distributor drive shaft off

going to pull the oil pump again (for the 7th time) tomorrow and try to get the drive shaft in the correct position. im wondering if the drive gear on the shaft is held in place with a shear pin and maybe is moving?

[Chickenman]

1: Distributor shaft is definitely in wrong position.

2: Something looks weird with your timing Mark and pulley. What engine is this? What pulley is on engine?  That timing tab is not factory. Even the factory timing tabs and pulleys vary. The pulleys and timing marks were not all the same for various years of L-series engines. The mark on the crank pulley can be misleading if the engine is built up from mix-n-match parts. 

3: You absolutely sure you're at TDC? See #2 Did you check with a positive stop method. Don't go by pulley. Outer ring could have slipped, or that Timing pointer is not right. I notice that the alternator is on the opposite side of the engine than normal. Pull all the plugs and slowly rotate crankshaft to TDC by hand.  Put your finger in the #1 hole until you feel compression. When the piston gets close to the top,  put a long thin screwdriver in #1 hole , You should be able to feel the piston come up, pause and then head back down. Obviously when it pauses that is TDC. see where your timing pointer points to on the damper pulley. I think the marks are out.

4: Check firing order. 1-5-3-6-2-4 . Rotor rotates counter clockwise

 

Picture of Distributor shaft in correct position:

Edited April 7, 2017 by Chickenman

[240260280]

Yup.. Spindle is off. btw It rotates CCW.  It is retarded thus ths back firing.  It is igniting the fuel late when the exhaust valve is open and the combustion chamber now includes the exhaust.

You can rotate plugs at Cap by 1 post CW to do a quick and dirty fix.  Get your total timing at 3000rpm ~36 degrees and you are in the ball park for further tuning.

 

All of us have seen or experienced the shifted spindle syndrome.... don't think you are special    Welcome to the club!

Edited April 7, 2017 by 240260280

[sweatybetty]

8 hours ago, Chickenman said:

1: Distributor shaft is definitely in wrong position.

2: Something looks weird with your timing Mark and pulley. What engine is this? What pulley is on engine?  That timing tab is not factory. Even the factory timing tabs and pulleys vary. The pulleys and timing marks were not all the same for various years of L-series engines. The mark on the crank pulley can be misleading if the engine is built up from mix-n-match parts. 

3: You absolutely sure you're at TDC? See #2 Did you check with a positive stop method. Don't go by pulley. Outer ring could have slipped, or that Timing pointer is not right. I notice that the alternator is on the opposite side of the engine than normal. Pull all the plugs and slowly rotate crankshaft to TDC by hand.  Put your finger in the #1 hole until you feel compression. When the piston gets close to the top,  put a long thin screwdriver in #1 hole , You should be able to feel the piston come up, pause and then head back down. Obviously when it pauses that is TDC. see where your timing pointer points to on the damper pulley. I think the marks are out.

4: Check firing order. 1-5-3-6-2-4 . Rotor rotates counter clockwise

 

Picture of Distributor shaft in correct position:

Chickenman, i am absolutely positive of the tdc and the timing pointer being in the correct posistion, that was checked with a dial micrometer during assembly. the block is an early l24. it has a very low serial number, so im assuming some one has replaced the original at some point.

im going to pull the shaft again to-nite and try again

im using a 90 amp denso alternator, that i moved to that spot. the factory spot was a little too "cluttered" for me

[sweatybetty]

3 hours ago, 240260280 said:

Yup.. Spindle is off. btw It rotates CCW.  It is retarded thus ths back firing.  It is igniting the fuel late when the exhaust valve is open and the combustion chamber now includes the exhaust.

You can rotate plugs at Cap by 1 post CCW to do a quick and dirty fix.  Get your total timing at 3000rpm ~36 degrees and you are in the ball park for further tuning.

 

All of us have seen or experienced the shifted spindle syndrome.... don't think you are special    Welcome to the club!

this make sense now. the frustrating part is the pig was running fine when i first fired it up. that is why i am wondering if the drive gear on the shaft is pinned. maybe the pin sheared and the gear has moved a little?

Edited April 7, 2017 by sweatybetty

[240260280]

Edit:  You can rotate plugs at Cap by 1 post CW to do a quick and dirty fix. 

[240260280]

1 hour ago, sweatybetty said:

this make sense now. the frustrating part is the pig was running fine when i first fired it up. that is why i am wondering if the drive gear on the shaft is pinned. maybe the pin sheared and the gear has moved a little?

 

All you have to do is to go to TDC, drop the oil pump, align the dots on the shafts, re-seat oil pump with one bolt, get up off the floor and have a look at the distributor end for the smaller semicircle part to be front and slightly down pointing towards the radiator inlet. Some times you have to do this twice to get it right.  Right of passage.

[Chickenman]

3 hours ago, sweatybetty said:

Chickenman, i am absolutely positive of the tdc and the timing pointer being in the correct position, that was checked with a dial micrometer during assembly. the block is an early l24. it has a very low serial number, so I'm assuming some one has replaced the original at some point.

 

Obviously that will work to.. LOL. Weird that it was running Ok then you first fired it up. I just looked at my BNIB turbo spindle, and it is not pinned. Just pressed on, Probably to a splined shaft. So I guess it could spin , although that is rare. Only other thing that could change the gear timing like that is a sheared key on the crank for the worm drive gear on the crankshaft. I did have one of those gears split on me during a race and it slipped on the crank. 

[Chickenman]

When you have things apart. Inspect the oil pump. Make sure that nothing has damaged the oil pump rotors and possibly jammed the teeth for an instant. That could make the spindle gear spin or damage the worm gear /key on the crank. Rare...but worth checking. 

[beermanpete]

I have a feeling you're missing something. The oil pump drive shaft position won't have any effect on the timing mark accuracy. If you have to set the timing for what appears to be 35 degrees to get the engine to run right something is wrong with the timing marks. Perhaps the harmonic damper has shifted since the engine was first assembled. Check the timing marks again.

[sweatybetty]

6 minutes ago, beermanpete said:

I have a feeling you're missing something. The oil pump drive shaft position won't have any effect on the timing mark accuracy. If you have to set the timing for what appears to be 35 degrees to get the engine to run right something is wrong with the timing marks. Perhaps the harmonic damper has shifted since the engine was first assembled. Check the timing marks again.

checked them yesterday, dead nuts on

[beermanpete]

1 minute ago, sweatybetty said:

checked them yesterday, dead nuts on

Good. Any chance your timing light is the problem? Do you have another to check it against?