Duffy's 1/71 Series 1 240z build

[duffymahoney]

4 minutes ago, SteveJ said:

Your MOV files aren't embedding properly. You'd have better luck uploading them to YouTube and linking them that way.

This site seems to have issues with it.  Basically my ignition switch while cranking doesn't give power to B/W wire.  I am replacing it.  

[SteveJ]

23 hours ago, duffymahoney said:

This site seems to have issues with it.  Basically my ignition switch while cranking doesn't give power to B/W wire.  I am replacing it.  

Which BW wire are you talking about? The BW at the switch doesn't get power until the key is in the ON position.

Maybe this video will help you figure out what you're looking at.

(Note: Video removed as I cannot confirm at this time that the switch operates as shown in the wiring diagrams.)

Edited August 23, 2022 by SteveJ

[duffymahoney]

2 hours ago, SteveJ said:

Which BW wire are you talking about? The BW at the switch doesn't get power until the key is in the ON position.

Maybe this video will help you figure out what you're looking at.

 

B/W from my ignition, a bunch of keyed 12v also seem to be affected by the switch not working correctly. I am guessing it's slow breaking/ getting worse?  $40 is an easy thing to test. Also it's like a 5 minute change out.  

[SteveJ]

2 hours ago, duffymahoney said:

B/W from my ignition, a bunch of keyed 12v also seem to be affected by the switch not working correctly. I am guessing it's slow breaking/ getting worse?  $40 is an easy thing to test. Also it's like a 5 minute change out.  

Now, if there are issues when the key is in ON, that's a different kettle of fish, as long as you understand it doesn't see voltage during the cranking cycle.

[Captain Obvious]

5 hours ago, SteveJ said:

as long as you understand it (B/W wire) doesn't see voltage during the cranking cycle.

There was some discussion about such things a while ago, but I can't find the discussion. I remember that it happened because I created and posted this pic culled from the various wiring diagrams over the years:

The wiring diagrams seem to indicate that starting in 73, that B/W wire is hot in both ON and START, but in 72 it is not? And I don't have reliable wiring diagrams for 70 or 71, so I can't tell if 72 is just an anomaly. It always seemed like a documentation error to me.

Have you confirmed how it really works?

[SteveJ]

7 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

There was some discussion about such things a while ago, but I can't find the discussion. I remember that it happened because I created and posted this pic culled from the various wiring diagrams over the years:

The wiring diagrams seem to indicate that starting in 73, that B/W wire is hot in both ON and START, but in 72 it is not? And I don't have reliable wiring diagrams for 70 or 71, so I can't tell if 72 is just an anomaly. It always seemed like a documentation error to me.

Have you confirmed how it really works?

I remember seeing the post of the ignition switch wiring diagrams through the years. It's easy enough to verify on my 73. I just have to lift the solenoid wire off and have the turn signals on. If I have turn signals blinking while starting, then it has power while cranking. 

The 70 FSM indicates it is not powered during start. The wiring diagram in the 71 supplement shows the same, and the 71 Body and Chassis Part 2 PDF matches.

The parts manual also indicates there were separate designs originally.

 

I still have a new D8700-E4629 (in Beck Arnley packaging) that according to Courtesy Parts's website "Replaces: 48700-E4600, 48700-E4625, 48700-E4629"

I did a continuity test on that switch and here are the results: (Red indicates continuity with the WR wire, and black indicates no continuity.)

OFF

Acc

On

Start

So the BW is hot on that switch in start. Either D8700-E4629 is not faithful to the original design or the wiring diagram is wrong. Either way, I took the video Private until I can confirm so I don't muddy the waters with it.

[Captain Obvious]

2 hours ago, SteveJ said:

The parts manual also indicates there were separate designs originally.

I have seen that the early ignition switches were different. Mechanically at least. The early switches used just one mounting screw to hold the switch to the back of the lock assembly, while the later switches used two mounting screws. And because of the mounting screw position(s), those two switches were not interchangeable.

In other words, if you have an early ignition lock assy, you would not be able to go to Rock-Auto and simply buy an ignition switch for the back of it. R-A sells the new style switch and it won't fit the back of the old lock bodies.

All that aside... The POINT is, I do know that the early switches are MECHANICALLY different than the later style, but I do not know if they are ELECTRICALLY different as well. And when I say "early", I'm not putting a hard date on that. I don't know when they changed over to the two mounting ear switch.

I know I'm muddying the waters with a small point here (about whether the B/W wire has power on it when in START), but it might depend on the year and whether the switch has been replaced in the past. I suspect many of the ignition lock assys have worn out over the past and have been replaced with newer versions.

[SteveJ]

19 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

I have seen that the early ignition switches were different. Mechanically at least. The early switches used just one mounting screw to hold the switch to the back of the lock assembly, while the later switches used two mounting screws. And because of the mounting screw position(s), those two switches were not interchangeable.

In other words, if you have an early ignition lock assy, you would not be able to go to Rock-Auto and simply buy an ignition switch for the back of it. R-A sells the new style switch and it won't fit the back of the old lock bodies.

All that aside... The POINT is, I do know that the early switches are MECHANICALLY different than the later style, but I do not know if they are ELECTRICALLY different as well. And when I say "early", I'm not putting a hard date on that. I don't know when they changed over to the two mounting ear switch.

I know I'm muddying the waters with a small point here (about whether the B/W wire has power on it when in START), but it might depend on the year and whether the switch has been replaced in the past. I suspect many of the ignition lock assys have worn out over the past and have been replaced with newer versions.

I don't disagree with you except to say it's not a small point. I would say it's a moderately sized point. 

It would be great if someone with an earlier car could confirm how the "single screw" switch operates electrically. It's pretty easy, as I mentioned before. Take the BY off the solenoid, switch the turn signal switch to left or right, and put the key in start. If the turn signals flash, the BW wire is powered during start.

@jfa.series1 Does your car have an original switch?

[duffymahoney]

4 hours ago, SteveJ said:

I remember seeing the post of the ignition switch wiring diagrams through the years. It's easy enough to verify on my 73. I just have to lift the solenoid wire off and have the turn signals on. If I have turn signals blinking while starting, then it has power while cranking. 

The 70 FSM indicates it is not powered during start. The wiring diagram in the 71 supplement shows the same, and the 71 Body and Chassis Part 2 PDF matches.

The parts manual also indicates there were separate designs originally.

 

I still have a new D8700-E4629 (in Beck Arnley packaging) that according to Courtesy Parts's website "Replaces: 48700-E4600, 48700-E4625, 48700-E4629"

I did a continuity test on that switch and here are the results: (Red indicates continuity with the WR wire, and black indicates no continuity.)

OFF

Acc

On

Start

So the BW is hot on that switch in start. Either D8700-E4629 is not faithful to the original design or the wiring diagram is wrong. Either way, I took the video Private until I can confirm so I don't muddy the waters with it.

Wow lots of good info! You would think that it would need to be hot while cranking.  I sometimes get it to be hot for 2-3 starts in a row, then it stops.  

[duffymahoney]

1 hour ago, Captain Obvious said:

I have seen that the early ignition switches were different. Mechanically at least. The early switches used just one mounting screw to hold the switch to the back of the lock assembly, while the later switches used two mounting screws. And because of the mounting screw position(s), those two switches were not interchangeable.

In other words, if you have an early ignition lock assy, you would not be able to go to Rock-Auto and simply buy an ignition switch for the back of it. R-A sells the new style switch and it won't fit the back of the old lock bodies.

All that aside... The POINT is, I do know that the early switches are MECHANICALLY different than the later style, but I do not know if they are ELECTRICALLY different as well. And when I say "early", I'm not putting a hard date on that. I don't know when they changed over to the two mounting ear switch.

I know I'm muddying the waters with a small point here (about whether the B/W wire has power on it when in START), but it might depend on the year and whether the switch has been replaced in the past. I suspect many of the ignition lock assys have worn out over the past and have been replaced with newer versions.

I have 2 screws, mine is a 1/71.  

[duffymahoney]

2 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

Wow lots of good info! You would think that it would need to be hot while cranking.  I sometimes get it to be hot for 2-3 starts in a row, then it stops.  

I could move my ecu to the G/W circuit.  I bought a new OEM switch.  I have a inline fuse coming for that.  

[SteveJ]

33 minutes ago, duffymahoney said:

Wow lots of good info! You would think that it would need to be hot while cranking.  I sometimes get it to be hot for 2-3 starts in a row, then it stops.  

As designed by Nissan, the BW wire from the ignition switch is not the primary source for power to the coil while cranking. The GW (or GL depending upon the drawing) wire is. The reason is that the GW gives a hotter spark while starting, but in normal operation, the BW wire runs through the ballast resistor to drop the voltage to reduce the wear on the points.