Lost Rear Bearing Shim Washers

[zKars]

 Perhaps I can do the old "picture is worth a 1000 words thing" here.

The copper washer has an ID of 1.05 inch. The ID of both bearings (hence the OD of the place on the axle where they press fit)  is 1.25inch. That copper washer CANNOT be placed both above and below the distance piece to be used as a spacer.

Here's me putting it over the smaller 240 splined stubby. I have a "B" distance piece on the axle, and this axle still has a grimy outer bearing on it, so the distance piece sits in its correct location.

Here is the copper washer sitting on the upper bearing shoulder. IT CAN'T GET TO THE DISTANCE  PIECE TO ACT LIKE A SPACER. If you have some that will, someone has enlarged the ID of them.

 

 

If those spacers on either side of the distance piece in that drawing DO exist as real parts (and they may have at some point) they are NOT these copper noise reduction washers. 

BTW, the 280 stubbies won't even let this copper washer get over their larger splines. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by zKars

[Zed Head]

You know you've been in Z car world for a long time when you can easily use "distance piece" in a sentence without pause.

That's a good discussion winner there zKars.  I still like my "basics of ball bearings" approach though.

[Zed Head]

On 11/19/2017 at 9:20 AM, Zed Head said:

A thought on being sure the distance piece is correct for the hub.  Stick the piece in without the axle.  It should be flush with the outer race seat on the other side, within a few thousandths. 

....Without the perfect tools, a flush feel by finger is probably good.

Just realized that this doesn't fit my "ball bearing basics" criteria, using the old bearing's inner race.  The old bearing will have wear that allows the inner race to move away from the plane of the outer race.  A flat piece of bar stock or the end of a steel straight edge in the hole would work though, after the old bearing is removed.

[Captain Obvious]

zKars, Oh well then! That would be mighty definitive if it doesn't even fit over the stub axle shaft, wouldn't it!!  I guess we'll have to wait for confirmation from Matthew to know for sure.

21 hours ago, Zed Head said:

The old bearing will have wear that allows the inner race to move away from the plane of the outer race.  A flat piece of bar stock or the end of a steel straight edge in the hole would work though, after the old bearing is removed.

Haha! I think I already said that? 

[Matthew Abate]

Okay, duh. Never bothered to check that. We know the copper washers aren’t the washers in the illustration.

I think the measurement of the space between the bearing seats and the measurement of the distance bearing indicate that there is no room for a different washer to fit, let along two of them. We I’m all good now. Ready to reassemble.

Thanks guys.


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[HuD 91gt]

Just bringing this back up to the top as I’m doing the final adjustments with my rear bearings.

Assembled and tighten the left rear up to 190f/lb. I don’t feel any play. I then noticed I left out the copper washer discussed above. Sincethis would have been installed afterwards I am ok with leaving it out.

i have now tightened the right rear to 220f/lb and there is noticeable play when I put the tire on and give it some force. This side had no copper washer. It was also extremely tight on disassembly (although as stated the other side had a copper washer and should have been much less tight).

 

It is possible I mixed up the axles as I was preparing and cleaning them. Spacers are still on the correct side. Should I be worried if i mixed them up?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by HuD 91gt

[zKars]

Please indicate in what axis you feel play on the right. in and out, up and down?

The copper washer has no effect on how the bearings sit in their seats or the compression of the distance piece. It does affect where  the inner stub half sits when its all tight, in an in/out sense, ie spaces it out a bit, which might differ how it fits with the seal or interferes on the sides if the dust flange is bent or something. 

Bottom line, that dang washer has nothing to do with bearing fit, preload, rotation torque, or anything important. If you have entire axle play, the bearings are not seated or the inner stub is not touching or compressing the two bearings against the distance piece properly, and about the only way that washer can affect this is if is jamming on the shaft and some force you appliying is bending the washer and not applying compression to bearing inner race. You didn't enlarge that washer hole and put it between the distance piece and a bearing did you?

[HuD 91gt]

If I grab the tire in the 3 and 9 o’clock position, and push with right hand, pull with left, then the opposite I can actually get a small clunk.

i remembered I haven’t tightened the front controls arm/diff bracket completely since rrmoving the diff. I will do that to see if the actually control arm is rocking.

Edited March 17, 2019 by HuD 91gt

[Zed Head]

2 hours ago, HuD 91gt said:

It is possible I mixed up the axles as I was preparing and cleaning them. Spacers are still on the correct side. Should I be worried if i mixed them up?

The "distance piece" AKA spacer, is meant to match the hub, not the axles.  So, mixing up axles shouldn't matter.  If you got 220 ft-lbs on the nut then there shouldn't be any axial play around the spacer, side-to-side, because you've clamped the spacer between the two inner races of the bearings.

The bearings themselves are not high precision bearings.  They're very tough ball bearings but can have some small amount of play of the balls in the races.  I think if everybody went out and wiggled their rear wheels they'd find some play.

If it rotates freely your bearings are probably fine.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Zed Head

[jonathanrussell]

I rebuilt my rear hubs this past summer. I did all of the work myself and was very careful about keeping the components exactly in order. My bearings were original and the grease was consistent with original grease. That combined with what I know about the car history makes me pretty sure the hubs had never been rebuilt prior (can never be positive though). My hubs have the copper phosphorous spacer. Here is the order of parts that I found starting on the inner hub...diff side.

Crush / lock nut.

zinc plated  steel washer.

companion flange

oil seal

copper phosphorus spacer (sandwiched between inner bearing and companion flange outer surface)

inner bearing

bearing spacer

outer bearing

axle / outer hub.

To me, if your hub and spacer are matched with the same letter, I don't see how you could add a spacer between the bearing and the bearing spacer and have everything work right. Maybe they were mismatched and the spacers were used to solve the mismatch?

If you decide to not use the copper spacers, take a look at the technical bulletin mentioned above. There is a different torque spec with vs without spacer.

 

 

[HuD 91gt]

Well, I tightened everything up (differentials/control arm mounts) and checked again. The little bit of play is still there. 

I then tightened the axle nut to 225f/lb to see if it made any difference. Not a bit. I should have thought about this a little harder though, as all surfaces in the front and back and up and down “portions” are a press fit (when holding the tire from the side. Tightening the bolt really wouldnt do anything.   More of an “in and out” when pushing and pulling the wheel.

Jonathon, you do have me worried that I mixed up my spacers now. It “could” happen. Argh. I would pull them again but I had to rent the slide hammer last time.

The axle which now has movement had none prior to changing. The other side now has none, where it had some play before (bearings really were shot on this side).

I swapped them all out with Beck Arnley units. Sadly only the outers were Japanese Made. Hoping the Chinese inners don’t cause me grief.

Edited March 19, 2019 by HuD 91gt

[Zed Head]

12 hours ago, HuD 91gt said:

Jonathon, you do have me worried that I mixed up my spacers now. It “could” happen. Argh. I would pull them again but I had to rent the slide hammer last time.

The spacers match the hubs and are designated with a latter showing the size range they are in.  Most hubs are the same, "B" I believe.  Check the letters on your hubs. If they are the same then mixing up the spacers just moved the play from one side to the other.  So swapping them would just move the play back to the other side.

A better way to make sure things are right is to measure the spacers and the hubs before assembly.  And the axles do have some play.  About 6 thousandths.