Rolling Shell with no VIN

[sweatybetty]

my car didnt have the tag on the dash. im assuming the original dash was trash and some replaced it. (good for me, it has no cracks) it also had the door and engine bay tags replaced, but neither matched the firewall vin. dmv told me the only one that counts is the one stamped into the firewall (which matches the title) i have since replaced the door and engine tag and hand-stamped the correct numbers on them

[Walter Moore]

4 hours ago, HS30-H said:

Without getting into the philosophical discussion of what actually constitutes 'a car', it is generally accepted that 'the car' in your case will be the thing that has the firewall-engraved chassis number. At this point, it looks to me as though you don't actually have full and correct ownership of that. I'd consider that a big problem...

 

I hate to agree with the man, but he is pretty much correct. What you have is a time bomb, not a car. S30's do not have a "VIN". They have a serial number. The auto theft databases that most (US) states rely upon don't work very well for cars made before 1981. If the paperwork you have in hand matches the serial number on the dash, you may well be able to get a title, but down the road you could still lose the car if it turns out that it was stolen years ago. At the very least you have evidence of tampering.

The whole thing sounds very questionable to me.

 

[87mj]

I knew a guy had an old Datsun pick up truck. It finally bit the dust and he found one out west. If he bought it, he was thinking about pulling the VIN tags off the old Datsun and putting them on the new one so that he wouldn't have to pay sales tax. I think both of these vins were '71.

[jfa.series1]

My tupence worth: I see the advice from the sheriff and the appraiser as sketchy at best - its not their skin in the game nor do they have the final say.  The only opinion that counts is your state's DMV!  In my state, all title application inspections are handled by the Highway Patrol officers.  They have an extensive listing of all of the locations for permanent VIN stamps, including the factory secret locations.  Those are the only VIN identifiers that count.  If you plan to move forward on a driver and not a parts car, check with your DMV before acting on it.

[JSM]

You could always make the etched vin simply go away. I know it doesn't solve your issue. 

[Captain Obvious]

Wow... Remind me to never buy a vehicle from Indiana.   

So if you don't have a title, then what documentation do you have to prove that you even own the vehicle in the first place? A notarized bill of sale? A non-notarized bill of sale?

And what information is on that documentation to indicate that the documentation pertains to that specific car? Is there VIN listed on that documentation? If so, which VIN? The one from the firewall, or the one from everywhere else?

[Zed Head]

There are many ways to get a title for a vehicle, that might not be the original for the bulk of the car.  It's surprising what you can do.

Here's a sampling from Oregon.  The link and a snippet.  The thing about the Z's is that their VIN format doesn't match the common databases that DMV's use.  So computer records are scarce, probably for showing that a car was stolen also.  87mj could probably file for a lost title and get it with the firewall VIN number, then change the other tags to match.

Question - does the engine code match the engine bay tag?  Might be a clue about where things came from.  Pretty common to combine cars to make one good one.

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/docs/trassembled.pdf

[Carl Beck]

On 11/19/2017 at 9:04 AM, foosman said:

Suppose someone steals your car, removes the engine bay and door jamb tags, and either removes the dash tag or puts in another dash with yet another VIN tag.  Now there is no way to prove it is your car, as the only remaining VINs (the firewall, and possibly the new dash) don't match your title.  Personally, I'd look to make sure I get a title based on the firewall VIN.

I have a similar issue with a '77 that we've owned since 1983.  It was stolen prior to our ownership, and reassigned a VIN when it was recovered as the dash, door jamb, and engine plates were removed by the thief.  I have State of MA paperwork linking the firewall VIN to the reassigned VIN, and the reassigned VIN is on a sticker on the driver side door jamb.  At some point, I'll probably restore the car, and will want to remove the sticker for painting purposes, and I'm thinking of having dash, door jamb, and engine bay plates remade with the firewall VIN.  The hardest part may be trying to convince the State of MA to buy off on the process of cleaning the title back to the firewall VIN, especially seeing as the car currently carries a CA title with the reassigned VIN, but I'm hoping that the paperwork trail is clear enough that they'll see the logic of my request.  They allowed me to clean the title on my RX-7 to go from "EXEMPT" mileage to "true" mileage, based on an affadavit from the previous owner, so I'm hopeful.

Most States I've lived in - reassign a new VIN, to replace the original -  for one reason - the Car was reported as a Total Loss by an insurance company, and sent to Salvage. In which case the Title is surrendered back to the State. If the car is then rebuilt out of the junk yard and other parts  - - It is assigned a Rebuilt or Reconstructed VIN and a new matching title. Here in Florida for example - the new VIN is the same as the original - only preceded by FLA. HLS30 2323 for example would become FLAHLS30 2323.  This is to assure any new owners is aware that the car had a Salvage Title.

 

@87mj - - - that would be the Legal Route for you. Apply for a "Salvage Title"-  because in effect you are reconstructing a Z out of different parts, that the factory never put together in the first place.

[Patcon]

I would not apply for a salvage title. If I could get a clear title I would. In many states some cars that are total loss still carry clear titles and I have come across cars, including my present project, that could have been totaled but weren't. There are a number of states that have really harsh rules for wrecked cars, Florida being one of them. In my state there are no "rebuilt" titles, only salvage titles which means the car went back to the insurance company and they got a salvage title from the state. There is no reason to brand the car if you don't need to...

[Zed Head]

I think that, maybe, one reason mj87 is nervous is because he might lose the car if he digs too deep.  If it is has been falsely titled in the past and the efforts to get it titled show that, he might be holding stolen property.

So, really, no offense, it's kind of a moral dilemma - know the truth or hang on to what might actually be someone else's car.  Probably better for peace of mind to just try to get the proper VIN on the proper title.  It's most likely just a lost or reconstructed title in the past.  You could probably do another lost title process and get it all squared away. 

It's the people at the DMV in your state that will know.  Not the two people you've talked to so far.  

[Mark Maras]

 Some years ago I read about owners of Oregon vehicles with branded titles, registering them in Washington and then back to Oregon. Seems in the transition back to Oregon, the "brand" on the title would get dropped. The car then had a clean title. 

[gnosez]

If you getting that feeling that all this is too much work and worry, sell the car to me as I could care less about what does and doesn't match up.

 I was surprised to read that the local LEO even knew there was a firewall VIN but maybe there is a database available to them to check.

Vintage tube frame race cars had a chassis number stamped but most of the 30,40, or 50 year old cars have been re-tubed multiple times and about the only thing that is original is the section of tubing that has the stamped chassis number, I'm talking about race cars worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, where the tube, the engine, the body work have all been replaced, repaired or modified and yet they are deemed "original". This is true for a 1956 Ferrari race car that is worth north of $16MM that ran at LeMans and was recently restored by shop near me.

But I digress, sell me this troublesome Z.