Rolling Shell with no VIN

[Patcon]

21 hours ago, Mark Maras said:

 Some years ago I read about owners of Oregon vehicles with branded titles, registering them in Washington and then back to Oregon. Seems in the transition back to Oregon, the "brand" on the title would get dropped. The car then had a clean title. 

This is called title washing. It is getting harder to do and could be illegal in many areas. I find it unethical to "wash" a salvage titled car once it is branded, but it doesn't bother me to have a clear title on a car that has crash damage. Salvage cars don't scare me for some of the same reasons gnosez posted above. Just about any damaged car can be made right if you spend the time and effort. Just my perspective...

[HS30-H]

20 hours ago, gnosez said:

Vintage tube frame race cars had a chassis number stamped but most of the 30,40, or 50 year old cars have been re-tubed multiple times and about the only thing that is original is the section of tubing that has the stamped chassis number, I'm talking about race cars worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, where the tube, the engine, the body work have all been replaced, repaired or modified and yet they are deemed "original". This is true for a 1956 Ferrari race car that is worth north of $16MM that ran at LeMans and was recently restored by shop near me.

Race cars are race cars, but race cars that display TWO numbered identities at the same time are on their way to the scene of an accident.

The car in question smells very iffy to me, and some parts of the USA are not far from being banana republics if the comments on this thread are anything to go by. Some of the people posting in this thread would make the rank of Generalissimo in those banana republics. Names have been taken for future reference... 

Note to self: Do Not Buy A Used Car From _______________. 

[gnosez]

I believe if this thread was started say 10-15 years ago when really nice Zs were selling for well under $10k and parts cars for over $1k, the issue of titles, ownership, banana republic sellers, etc. it wouldn't have gotten much of rise from the Z community. Now with prices exceeding twice that amount, buyers are thinking about a particular cars re-sale value instead of the joy of immediate ownership. You got a Z for a good price, fixed what your budget allowed, drove the car and sold it for whatever the market would bear. With clone 'Cudas selling for over $150k (because the real ones are worth too much to drive it seems), it looks like the Zs are hitting their stride in the marketplace.

For those with significant cars (low VINs, real G-noses, famous ownership history) I understand why you should be very concerned about titles, matching numbers, firewall stamped VINs, original parts and the lack of bondo. 

As to the USA and our banana republican ways, it should be noted that a scam involving the production and sale of an old English (production/race) car using a chassis number that had not been registered with MOT for more than 10 years is not just an American issue. When the original car and the copy were entered in a vintage race it raised a red flag leading to the discovery of a decades old scam using left over parts. A car once thought to be worth $180k is now just a parts car.

Okay, back to getting the rest of the Thanksgiving meal ready....

 

[HS30-H]

15 hours ago, gnosez said:

As to the USA and our banana republican ways, it should be noted that a scam involving the production and sale of an old English (production/race) car using a chassis number that had not been registered with MOT for more than 10 years is not just an American issue. When the original car and the copy were entered in a vintage race it raised a red flag leading to the discovery of a decades old scam using left over parts. A car once thought to be worth $180k is now just a parts car.

You've just proved my point (thanks....). Cars with *faked* identities will eventually be exposed, and their fate then falls into uncertainty at the very least.

Does not bode well for the OP's car, in my opinion. 

[Zed Head]

Considering how many parts can get replaced during a restoration, it seems kind of limiting to make a small piece of firewall metal so important.  If a person cuts that rectangle of metal out of a car and installs it in another car, which car is the legitimate one?

 

[HS30-H]

4 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Considering how many parts can get replaced during a restoration, it seems kind of limiting to make a small piece of firewall metal so important.  If a person cuts that rectangle of metal out of a car and installs it in another car, which car is the legitimate one?

Do you seriously not know the answer to that question?

 

[87mj]

I thought I would give an update to this little dilemma.  I bought a 6/70 series 1 yesterday completely by accident (I told my wife it just showed up at my doorstep somehow). The poor '71 series 2 car with mismatched vins is going into storage for another 10 years.   I will post pictures of it.  It is too good to scrap out. but my finances and family will not allow 2 concurrent restorations.

I told the family it is going into storage to be parted and scrapped.  However, if I don't need its parts to restore my '70 I am getting it titled under the firewall VIN and restoring it.  British Racing Green.  But that's our little secret.

After all. One 240z is enough. Two is too many and three indicates I have a problem.  I don't have a problem. At least that's what I tell myself. Maybe..

Edited November 25, 2017 by 87mj

[Patcon]

4 hours ago, 87mj said:

Two is too many and three indicates I have a problem

Don't tell @Diseazdthat!

Go ahead and try to get the title straight now, it may take some time. I took me 3 years to get a clear title on a car I bought out of NY. If you can great. If you can't you know it's a parts car for sure. It gets harder every year to get these kind of issues straightened out at the DMV. They would really prefer these vehicles weren't on the road at all, I believe...

[siteunseen]

5 hours ago, 87mj said:

After all. One 240z is enough. Two is too many and three indicates I have a problem.  I don't have a problem. At least that's what I tell myself. Maybe..

They have a way of sneaking up on you.  At least that's what I tell everyone. 

[Zed Head]

7 hours ago, 87mj said:

The poor '71 series 2 car with mismatched vins is going into storage for another 10 years.  

The story behind the two VINs makes the car more interesting, to me anyway.  I'd try to flesh that out.  Ten years from now it will be even more like a pile of parts, instead of an interesting car. 

An old all-original one-owner well-documented 240Z is neat, but there's really not much excitement to it.  Not a whole lot to chew on, mentally.  I'd spend more time at the car with a story, at the car show, than at the all-original car.

But that's just me, one of many different types of aficionado.  The basic question here, is what really makes a car a car?  The point of my rhetorical question.  Which has many answers, depending on which type you are.

[gnosez]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

I doubt anyone in Japan or here the US thought that nearly 50 years later these cars would be both collected and a thread about VINs would merit a discussion.

Got a Z that is in some way significant or historical;, then it should have matching tags. Got car number 10356? If you're concerned about it's resale value spend the time and money to get a proper title in the State you're in. But maybe you have car 10357 or 10355, are they more important than car 10356? They made thousands of these cars and not all of them are special. Hell, if they (they being Datsun/Nissan) thought these were special they would have kept making the S30 body cars for decades and not moved on to other versions. First and foremost these are objects to transport you from Point A to Point B (with a smile on your face to be sure) but that's all they are. What we think they are and how they make us feel is what makes them special.

Alan, you have perhaps more person-to-person experience with the folks who made this cars, so you tell us, were they build to be put in a museum or instead to be driven? And yes, I get the scam, fraud aspect of your concern as someone with a special Z or two and I am more than aware of the slippery slope issue as well, but these aren't cars where they made 12, 189 or 457. When a stock 1973 240Z with a high production number is sold for six figures or becomes a most have collector car in Europe then I would reconsider my opinion.

....sometimes a car is just a car.

[HS30-H]

16 hours ago, gnosez said:

I doubt anyone in Japan or here the US thought that nearly 50 years later these cars would be both collected and a thread about VINs would merit a discussion.

Got a Z that is in some way significant or historical;, then it should have matching tags. Got car number 10356? If you're concerned about it's resale value spend the time and money to get a proper title in the State you're in. But maybe you have car 10357 or 10355, are they more important than car 10356? They made thousands of these cars and not all of them are special. Hell, if they (they being Datsun/Nissan) thought these were special they would have kept making the S30 body cars for decades and not moved on to other versions. First and foremost these are objects to transport you from Point A to Point B (with a smile on your face to be sure) but that's all they are. What we think they are and how they make us feel is what makes them special.

Alan, you have perhaps more person-to-person experience with the folks who made this cars, so you tell us, were they build to be put in a museum or instead to be driven? And yes, I get the scam, fraud aspect of your concern as someone with a special Z or two and I am more than aware of the slippery slope issue as well, but these aren't cars where they made 12, 189 or 457. When a stock 1973 240Z with a high production number is sold for six figures or becomes a most have collector car in Europe then I would reconsider my opinion.

....sometimes a car is just a car.

What's all this 'museum or driven' stuff got to do with anything? What has quantities built got to do with it either? You're missing The Big Point here.

There are several reasons why car manufacturers issue individual cars with their own unique chassis/car number and 'identity', but the main one is to comply with (international) laws. These unique identities are not transferable. 

But we all know what goes on. If it is done *professionally* (cough....) enough that it is all but undetectable, then so be it. That stuff happens, but it is not supposed to. 

What beggars belief is somebody blithely talking about an example of fraudulent activity (as a victim of it, no less) on an open forum, and apparently not even getting what the car represents. He has a car which has had the identity of another loosely pinned on it, and half of the people replying to this thread don't appear to think he has a problem. My understanding of the situation is that he has documents which show he owns an engine bay tag, a door jamb tag and a dash tag. They are attached to a car body that he doesn't legally own, even if it is in his possession. For those not so hot on their arithmetic, that's TWO sets of unique identities that have been separated from their original homes. And why?

The usual answer is that it was for nefarious reasons. I'm surprised that members of a marque and model specialist 'club' forum would condone such activity, either directly or indirectly. As far as I am aware, such practices are illegal in the majority of civilised countries. Here in the UK and Europe, if such a car was inspected and discovered by a member of the Police force, by a customs official, by a vehicle licensing agency, a licensed engineer or independent assessor, it would be impounded. If no legitimate paperwork for the part of the vehicle with the biggest claim to a unique identity ('Part Number One' - the unibody) could be produced then the vehicle would be crushed and a fraud investigation would follow. Anybody who unwittingly purchased such a car would drop it like a hot stone, and would be seeking recourse and legal advice.

The 'nothing special' / 'not historically important' part of your post just doesn't stack up. Each and every firewall-engraved identity unique. None of us has the moral or legal right to play god with these cars and remix identities at our convenience. It's nothing to do with value, model rarity or historic significance.

And all this is quite apart from whatever happened further back up the trail, which often turns out to be theft or fraud, and has a victim...