Rolling Shell with no VIN

[HS30-H]

17 hours ago, gnosez said:

....sometimes a car is just a car.

In this particular case, it appears to be two cars...

[Zed Head]

6 minutes ago, HS30-H said:

None of us has the moral or legal right to play god with these cars and remix identities at our convenience.     

Laws are determined by the state, sometimes the county.  By people.  That's how laws work, they're just written rules, written by people, in this case, for the purpose of assigning ownership.  As already mentioned, there are many different laws in the USA.  We are not homogeneous.

Morality is determined by intent.  Intent has not been determined here yet.  If the "law" says that you can leave an old VIN ID on a part used on a separate car with its own VIN, then both of your cases are incorrect.  The law will have been followed and whoever did it had no apparent intent to "steal" from another person.  All they need to do is follow the law.

The OP has moved on, apparently, and may or may not be hiding the car for ten years.  If he is hiding it then maybe he is committing an amoral act.  But, he probably hasn't really though about it, so god might give him a pass.

Really though, you're kind of going over the top here.  It's still just a car with some numbers attached, and no documents showing which are correct.  Bringing the concept of a supreme power in to the discussion is a bit much, and nobody has advocated breaking the law.  We're just describing how things are over here in the wild west.  This is not England.  But, since it's a topic, are the laws in all fo the territories of the UK identical, or are there differences?  Might be a good point of reference for you.  The OP bought an undefined legal problem and may or may not try to resolve it.

Found my example on Wikipedia.  We're not so different.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_Kingdom

[tzagi1]

Let's look at things philosophically, 

What part of the car if changed, affect the OWNERSHIP/LEGAL STATUS of such vehicle.

Assume I have a truck, I get into an accident and the frame is bent, I pick up another frame at a junk yard, private party ect and swap it in. obviously the frame numbers no longer match the vin, is it or should it be illegal? after all the frame was purchased legally, it wasn't stolen. Same argument can be made for the engine , subframes or any other part that can be changed....that includes the cabin.

For example: on some trucks there were no numbers stamped anywhere but the frame AND the vin tag/s that were riveted to the dash, door frame ect

does changing the frame effects legality? maybe in some other countries but in no state in the US that I'm aware of.

how about changing the cab and riveting that vin plates on it? dito!

Now back to the case in point: as far as law enforcement is concerned the car's identity comes from the vin tags, the numbers stamped on the cab/frame interest no one, unless they are reported stolen, that will get you in hot water...otherwise...no body cares.

Back in the late 90's I moved to Reno from Socal, at the time I had this 79 Toyota pickup 4x4,  the cab mounts were all gone(the floor was all rusted out) so it was much easier to swap in another cab, I transferred the dash and vin tags off the old (white) cab to the  new (blue) cab, among with everything else such as doors seats ect. 

In Nevada a vehicle that comes out of state and is to be registered is required to get a "vin check" you take your vehicle into the dmv and an inspector verifies that your vin numbers matches the title ect.

When I took it in the inspector commended me on a job well done!, I guess my rivering skills exceeded his expectations... did he care about or ran the vin on the firewall? hell no, imagine a complete white truck with a blue cab....it was obvious what was done here...

Some will make the argument of "vin fraud" as a crutch....but lets examine the definition of "fraud": "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain"

As long as one does not lie about the act (swapping a body in our case) there is no fraud. if one has vin tags/firewall for 00015 and transfers it all to a say 10589 (just for an example), then tries to pass it as a 000015 (to increase its value)...now we have a fraud case. its that simple.

[HS30-H]

2 hours ago, Zed Head said:

Really though, you're kind of going over the top here.  It's still just a car with some numbers attached, and no documents showing which are correct.  Bringing the concept of a supreme power in to the discussion is a bit much, and nobody has advocated breaking the law.  We're just describing how things are over here in the wild west.  This is not England.  But, since it's a topic, are the laws in all fo the territories of the UK identical, or are there differences?  Might be a good point of reference for you.  The OP bought an undefined legal problem and may or may not try to resolve it.

Found my example on Wikipedia.  We're not so different.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_United_Kingdom

It is perhaps wise not to take the expression "playing god" too literally. Especially if the letter g is in lower case...

National laws pertaining to motor vehicles in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are administered by The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) - a government agency - on a nationwide basis. The DVLA share data and intelligence - where necessary and practical - with other European vehicle licensing agencies. I think you'll find that most first world nations take a dim view of vehicle cloning, vehicle identity fraud and - in the vernacular - vehicle 'ringing'. 

Indeed "this is not England". And I've a feeling we are not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

 

[tzagi1]

" I think you'll find that most first world nations take a dim view of vehicle cloning"

You will have to qualify that. 

Cloning itself has no "dim view" If I wanted (and could afford) to replicate a(say) 1970 Camaro LT1...no one would mind, heck, I'll be praised.

The only problem that might arise if I will try to SELL is as a genuine LT1 and not a clone. that would be fraud.

I know where you are coming from...Got plenty of friends in Europe that are bound by MOT, TUF ect,

however...none of that applies in our case here.

 

 

[HS30-H]

27 minutes ago, tzagi1 said:

Let's look at things philosophically, 

What part of the car if changed, affect the OWNERSHIP/LEGAL STATUS of such vehicle.

 

As long as one does not lie about the act (swapping a body in our case) there is no fraud. if one has vin tags/firewall for 00015 and transfers it all to a say 10589 (just for an example), then tries to pass it as a 000015 (to increase its value)...now we have a fraud case. its that simple.

The answer to your first question is 'Part Number One'. It's the unibody/monocoque/bodyshell, and it carries a unique identity.

You cannot "swap a body" on these cars. Nissan did not supply 'Body In White' un-numbered replacement bodyshells for these cars, so if you substitute one for another then you have - effectively - another car altogether. Parts from two - or more - cars can become one, but two unique identities cannot become one.

I notice people like yourself are not asking why the car in question ended up like it did. We are talking about two cars in the mix here. One car donated an engine bay tag, door jamb tag and dash tag (what happened to their original bodyshell?) and one car donated its bodyshell (what happened to its engine bay tag, door jamb tag, dash tag and any identity-related paperwork?).

"As long as one does not lie" is not going to cut it here. The car itself - as it stands - is a lie.   

   

[HS30-H]

4 minutes ago, tzagi1 said:

You will have to qualify that. 

 

First I want to hear your explanation of how you can "swap a body" on these cars.

Swap a body and you've effectively swapped a car.

[tzagi1]

"You cannot "swap a body" on these cars"

According to who??????????????????? because YOU say so?

Please quote a law/ refer to a written law by any US state or federal agency that makes such act illegal.

Remember, the law structure in the US is quite different then in the old world, what you have is "what is not written as legal is illegal",what we have IS the exact opposite!

So unless there is written statute that prohibits such an act.....I'm all ears! I'd love to hear a rebuttal.

Again, I'm not trying to fight with you, I'm asking you to understand that "law" is a regional thing, I'm VERY familiar with UK law MOT ect....as flawed as they are, you however quoting them as if they are the 10 commandments. understand, we are NOT subjects, we are US citizens, we have rights, one of them is a right to property, as in, the government has no right to tell us what to do with said property. that includes...changing the body on a 45 year old z car.

[Zed Head]

2 minutes ago, tzagi1 said:

"You cannot "swap a body" on these cars"

Sorry tzag, but he's right - these are unibody cars, with reinforcing frame-like pieces in certain areas.  The "body" is, essentially, the whole car, there is no frame.

[tzagi1]

"First I want to hear your explanation of how you can "swap a body" on these cars.

Swap a body and you've effectively swapped a car."

In legal terms, explained and answered. a body is just a car part, no different then a door. (you do know that some manufactures stamp the vin on ALL body panels including the doors....right?)

[Mike]

@tzagi1 the US has different DMV laws depending on the state.  However, most states agree that a VIN is assigned to the frame of a production car.  In the case of a Z, the VIN is assigned to the unibody.  Legally, the registration will need to change VIN numbers if you change the body.

[tzagi1]

40 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Sorry tzag, but he's right - these are unibody cars, with reinforcing frame-like pieces in certain areas.  The "body" is, essentially, the whole car, there is no frame.

There is no right or wrong, only if its legal or not. In my opinion it's wrong to transplant a chevy 350 into a z car...but Plenty have done it and its not illegal.

The unibody argument does not hold water as well, on any modern pickup the vin is stamped on the cab and the frame, you can change either or both without any legal issues.