Rolling Shell with no VIN

[gnosez]

If a Z came with a title that matched the VIN tags but not the firewall VIN and the seller told you beforehand would you still buy it?  Let's assume for this question that we are not talking about an early Series I but some run of the mill 240 (a 73 represented as a 73), a driver not a show car. You know what you're getting. And no MOT inspections just your everyday take the title to DMV and register the car.

I did an informal poll today and got some interesting responses (practical, ethical and legal).

[Mike]

3 hours ago, tzagi1 said:

Quote:  it's priceless, I would repair it to maintain the matching serial numbers.  Since the accident was caused by someone else, they will be paying the bill

On whose dime? the "clandestin " day laborer with no insurance that hit you? not to mention minimum state insurance covers up to $30k in physical damage, try to recover a $100k loss.

Quote:A house typically sits on land, which are shown as two different entities on your deed

Incorrect, the only time there are 2 "titles" is when you purchase a mobile with the land, you get a deed for the land and a title for the mobile.

A purchase of stick built comes with a deed only for both.

I'm done making arguments here. I'm tired.

Insurance would pay for it, otherwise I wouldn't be driving the priceless classic.

Every stick built home I've purchased has a tax bill and deed that mentions each entity separately.  Take a look at your taxes and you'll see what I'm talking about.  If you tried tearing down a house, and building a new one, your mortgage lender has an agreement that requires the entire balance paid in full.

Yes, I'm sure most everyone else is tired too.  I'm unsure what this discussion accomplished, other than confirming VIN modification is a very confusing topic.  All I know is that I would NEVER buy a car that has VIN problems like the ones we discussed above.  On a Z, the VIN is engraved into the unibody (the frame).  IF that doesn't match the title in hand, my recommendation is to walk away from the deal.

[87mj]

I thought I would upload a few photos of the car.  The front fenders are off but I have some for it.  The rocker on one side is rusted and needs replaced.  Both rear quarters look great but have been bondo puttied and will need replaced.  I suspect the car has not been on the road for at least 15-20 years.  The driver floor has a hole but the passenger doesn't.  The battery tray is great but upon close inspection, you can see rust at the firewall where the cowl drain was clogged and water sat.  The cowl mouse nest wasn't helpful. The wheel wells both have that steel plate rusted away but the frame looks good. 

It starts fast and is not cold blooded. The transmission is the old series 1 transmission.

The brake master and clutch master are both dry and full of dirt (and mouse droppings).  I suspect it will need new calipers and drum cylinders. Plus all hard lines. 

To address a few comments: 

Its obviously a mid '71. 

I have zero buyers remorse on this car.  I bought it without a title or the expectation I can get one. After I owned it, I began to question cutting it. I bought it as a parts car but I think it is a shame to cut up a car that theoretically can be driven again. 

I owned it for 6 months before I figured out the vin in the firewall didn't match the tags. It was only after I started cleaning it up that I noticed. The previous owner wouldn't have known either.  He bought it to restore but decided to do an MG Midget instead (??). There was 20 years of dirt and grime over the firewall vin.

I called it a rolling shell with no vin because I wanted the car to match the vin tags in the door jam and wheel well.

So there it is.

I bought a 5/70 50xx vin series 1 car over the weekend that needs a partial floor pan under the passenger seat between and including the seat brackets. If I used the lime green car as a parts car, I would take the passenger floor which would obviously ruin the car.  (It looks rusted but it isn't.  Rust water from the tool bins came in and sat on the floor.).  Taking the floor would return the 5/70 car back to factory more than buying an aftermarket floor pan IMO.

Also, I cant see the value in restoring this now that I have the other car. When finished restoring this car, I might have as much in it as it is worth. The 5/70 car is completely different. Even though I wouldn't sell it I still need to take it into consideration.

So spend $10k on body work to restore it or kill it by taking the floor for the 5/70 car?

Thanks

Gary

[87mj]

Mike,

I just saw your post above.  I agree completely. I wouldn't buy a car with mismatched vins. especially after reading all of this. If I cant get a title (and door jam & engine bay tags) matching the firewall, I wouldn't go forward and restore this car. 

Obviously it is a very hot topic and my paranoia paid off in this case. 

Gary

[cbuczesk]

12 hours ago, tzagi1 said:

Imagine that you have a 69 Dodge charger 440 4 speed, a priceless classic. during your regular weekend drive some asswipe sideswipes you on the passenger side crushing the monocoque. the body shop is quoting you $30000 to repair it OR you can pick up another body for $10000(just arbitrary numbers to make a point)....

 

Are you serious??? You think it's ok to swap VINS on a Mopar? You obviously know nothing about the Mopar world. The cars that have their VINs swapped are blacklisted. They're listed in databases all over the world. There are discussions about this all the time on the Mopar boards when someone new comes in and talks about swapping VINs. Go over to moparts.com or forum.e-bodies.org and ask what they think about swapping VINs on a 69 Charger R/T 440/4-speed.

Chuck

 

[HS30-H]

9 hours ago, tzagi1 said:

I'm done making arguments here. I'm tired.

One last thing, if I may:

Do you own a passport? A passport issued by the United States Department of State? 

That's a straight question, no spin.

[Mike]

3 hours ago, 87mj said:

I just saw your post above.  I agree completely. I wouldn't buy a car with mismatched vins. especially after reading all of this. If I cant get a title (and door jam & engine bay tags) matching the firewall, I wouldn't go forward and restore this car. 

Obviously it is a very hot topic and my paranoia paid off in this case. 

Hi Gary,

Sounds good my friend.  I hope that something useful happened with this discussion.  Apologies that your thread was hijacked, but, this is how trending topics go.  Your post made it beyond the tipping point.. 

Mike

[Captain Obvious]

I know I had checked out earlier, but I've still got an outstanding question that may clear this whole thing up...

I understand that you didn't get any title with the purchase. So what documentation DO you have to prove that you even own the vehicle in the first place? A notarized bill of sale? A non-notarized bill of sale? Anything?

And what information is on that documentation to indicate that it pertains to that specific car? Is there VIN listed on that documentation? If so, which VIN? The one from the firewall, or the one from everywhere else?

The reason I ask is because if your documentation is notarized and includes the VIN from the firewall, then we're all going on about nothing. Take off the removable VIN tags and throw them out. Problem solved. If you're energetic, buy yourself some replacement nameplates that match the firewall.

But if you don't have any documentation, or if that documentation isn't notarized and/or doesn't include the firewall VIN, then I believe the prospect of ever getting that car legitimately titled is doubtful. At least, I hope so.

"Don't worry about the number engraved into the firewall of the car. For the title, we'll just use this other one stamped into this easily removable nameplate."

Said no DMV official, ever.    

[Captain Obvious]

4 hours ago, cbuczesk said:

Are you serious??? You think it's ok to swap VINS on a Mopar?

Hahaha!! Chuck, I was waiting for that! I knew that would strike a chord with you!

[tzagi1]

5 hours ago, HS30-H said:

One last thing, if I may:

Do you own a passport? A passport issued by the United States Department of State? 

That's a straight question, no spin.

As A matter of fact I have 2....and I know where you are trying o spin it but its not going to work, a passport is a document issued by a government, same government also issued laws to prevent the alteration of the document. however a vin is not issued by a government and the law is clear, it can be altered for purposes of repair. read above.

[Jason240z]

I thought you’d finished?

 

you see Range Rovers for less than £1000 because they’re crap.

our mot rules do not mean you have to scrap anything, just because it fails.  I’m not sure where you’ve  heard otherwise?

im not arguing with you about it as you do not seem to understand how these Cars are identified, or what the chassis is on these cars.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Jason240z

[Zed Head]

11 hours ago, 87mj said:

I owned it for 6 months before I figured out the vin in the firewall didn't match the tags. It was only after I started cleaning it up that I noticed. The previous owner wouldn't have known either.  He bought it to restore but decided to do an MG Midget instead (??). There was 20 years of dirt and grime over the firewall vin.

You really should go dig up all of the backstory that you can.  Otherwise, you'll always seem a little shady.  No offense, but you have a car in your possession that might be stolen or part of a years-ago scam.  If you don't try to find out how the two VIN shell came to have two VINs, you're accepting it's shadiness.  You already talked about "hiding" it for ten years.

Appearances and all that.  I don't know you all I know is what you've written on the old internet.