Rolling Shell with no VIN

[Jason240z]

15 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

Two things - please quote or copy the statement from any individual that has expressed "condoning" falsifying a VIN.

Second - if you do find a kernel of support in this thread for falsifying a VIN, please call out the individual.  Not this "place".  Don't use a broad brush to paint everyone on the site as a potential thief.  It's lazy.

If you start at the beginning of the thread and work through it you'll probably find the single post that started everything spinning madly, with unfounded insinuations of thievery, dishonesty and/or immorality.  

 He hasn't committed any crimes, yet.

Sorry for the cutdown quote, seemed easier to keep it on topic.

I'm not following any lead.  I was the one who bought a car that wasn't what it said it was, just like the OP.

I haven't said at any point that anyone is guilty of falsifying a vin.  When I said 'not this place', I meant it, in the context as at no point should we as a club follow such a path. Which we haven't and shouldn't.  Its not being Lazy, its just being very clear.

I feel for the OP.

 

[HS30-H]

49 minutes ago, Zed Head said:

....please quote or copy the statement from any individual that has expressed "condoning" falsifying a VIN.  HS30 implied that that was happening but I don't think that there are any actual words written in this thread that show that.  You seem to be following HS30's lead.  The bulk of this thread is about how it could happen and what to do about it.  Nobody is suggesting that it's right or legal.

 

Once again, I find it hard to take you seriously.

Take another peep at posts nos. 5, 15, 17, 21, 24, 27, 29 and 35 of this thread for starters. Don't make me quote them all. And that's without listing up every post from our new friend 'tzagi1', who is beyond satire. He even mentioned old Russian trucks at one point, which made the tin foil on my head quiver a little. Putinbot? Nah, he's too funny to be Russian.

But here's a real zinger from yourself: "Considering how many parts can get replaced during a restoration, it seems kind of limiting to make a small piece of firewall metal so important.  If a person cuts that rectangle of metal out of a car and installs it in another car, which car is the legitimate one?"

That was from post no.68. A rhetorical question? Satire? Not clear from where I'm sitting. One minute you're condoning the practice, and the next you're against it. My impression is that you might have woken up and smelled the coffee around the second page of the thread. Hard to tell though.

 

 

You're clear now though, right?

[Zed Head]

59 minutes ago, Jason240z said:

Sorry for the cutdown quote, seemed easier to keep it on topic.

You can see the attempts to spin the topic in to a battle (post above this one), with personal attacks disguised in well-versed dissemblement.  Talking around the main topic, but close enough to appear on-topic.

This thread should really be titled "Shell with two VINs", not "no VIN".  87mj made an attempt to get things straight but even local law enforcement seems to give bad advice.  Which could be what happened to the person he bought it from.  Sometimes people at the DMV are just too helpful, and will skirt the rules thinking that they're doing a favor.  Or maybe just don't have the training or documents to know about the firewall VIN.  In 87mj's case, the firewall VIN wasn't covered, it, apparently, just wasn't considered.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Zed Head

[tzagi1]

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

In 87mj's case, the firewall VIN wasn't covered, it, apparently, just wasn't considered.

Exactly, as long as the individual follows the rules and does not try to cover up anything, he has nothing to be afraid of.

Furthermore, transferring the firewall vin (as in replacing the body and keeping(welding in) the old vin) is very common in the muscle car restoration community, no one raises an eyebrow over it. it can only become a problem if somebody misrepresents the sale(IE claiming the original body hasn't been replaced), which can happen I suppose...but that is just plain fraud no different from restamping a block to make a car number matching and lying about it. 

 

[Jason240z]

4 minutes ago, tzagi1 said:

 

Moving the ID from one shell to another is the same thing.  Its not the correct ID for that shell.  The shell is ID'd/Vin'd(if they're actual words) at the factory. 

There's no reason to.

[Jason240z]

1 hour ago, Zed Head said:

You can see the attempts to spin the topic in to a battle (post above this one), with personal attacks disguised in well-versed dissemblement.  Talking around the main topic, but close enough to appear on-topic.

This thread should really be titled "Shell with two VINs", not "no VIN".  87mj made an attempt to get things straight but even local law enforcement seems to give bad advice.  Which could be what happened to the person he bought it from.  Sometimes people at the DMV are just too helpful, and will skirt the rules thinking that they're doing a favor.  Or maybe just don't have the training or documents to know about the firewall VIN.  In 87mj's case, the firewall VIN wasn't covered, it, apparently, just wasn't considered.

two vins is just as bad, possibly worse than no VIN.

I don't think there's any personal attacks, just some replies are vague to which direction they fall.  No one wants to be in the position the OP is in.  When it happened to me, it was not a nice feeling at all.  If it wasn't pointed out or if everyone suggested it will be 'ok' i'd have ended up wasting lots of time and money, then getting into bother when I try to insure it.

[tzagi1]

25 minutes ago, Jason240z said:

Moving the ID from one shell to another is the same thing.  Its not the correct ID for that shell.  The shell is ID'd/Vin'd(if they're actual words) at the factory. 

There's no reason to.

There are more then a few reasons, accidents, rust ect. , but for starters, you have to understand that we DON'T live under MOT law, we are not required to dispose(junk) of a vehicle that the government does not find roadworthy..

Imagine that you have a 69 Dodge charger 440 4 speed, a priceless classic. during your regular weekend drive some asswipe sideswipes you on the passenger side crushing the monocoque. the body shop is quoting you $30000 to repair it OR you can pick up another body for $10000(just arbitrary numbers to make a point)....

What would you do?

Don't get stuck on the "shell" thing  it's just another car part no different then a hood, roof, trunk ect.

Quote:" Its not the correct ID for that shell"

And? how is that different from any other part of said car? does changing the engine makes a car "incorrect"? how about the doors?

Who determines what is "correct" and why does that matter?
A car is just a car, its an assembly for many metal and plastic components, it is given a unique serial number that is used by the government  to establish OWNERSHIP no different then say... a house.

When you buy a house you are given a deed....no different then a title to a car.  the deed has the legal description of said property, it has a the coordinates of the location and a lot number as assigned to it by the state/county.

Assume the you decide to demolish said house and build another instead on the lot, how does that affect the deed? You tore down that 1000sqf house and built a 2000 sqf instead (All legal with all necessary permits) does it change the possession status of said property? not at the least.

Another case in point, Lets assume I have a 1975 Jeep cj5, the body is rusty so I order a new fiberglass or aluminium body, I swap in my vin tag, is that illegal?

Next I decide that I need a frame so I order a new(aftermarket) frame for it...is that illegal?

Next come the dana 60's 40 inch tires, the LS7....you get the picture.

The jeep has ZERO original components! yet it is still a 1975 Jeep cj5 and I still have a title in my name. this is how it works, there is no single part that I cannot change or replace affecting the legal status of said jeep other then one: the vin tag.

 

 

[Jason240z]

16 minutes ago, tzagi1 said:

1)There are more then a few reasons, accidents, rust ect. , but for starters, you have to understand that we DON'T live under MOT law, we are not required to dispose(junk) of a vehicle that the government does not find roadworthy..

2)Imagine that you have a 69 Dodge charger 440 4 speed, a priceless classic. during your regular weekend drive some asswipe sideswipes you on the passenger side crushing the monocoque. the body shop is quoting you $30000 to repair it OR you can pick up another body for $10000(just arbitrary numbers to make a point)....

What would you do?

Don't get stuck on the "shell" thing  it's just another car part no different then a hood, roof, trunk ect.

Quote:" Its not the correct ID for that shell"

And? how is that different from any other part of said car? does changing the engine makes a car "incorrect"? how about the doors?

Who determines what is "correct" and why does that matter?
A car is just a car, its an assembly for many metal and plastic components, it is given a unique serial number that is used by the government  to establish OWNERSHIP no different then say... a house.

When you buy a house you are given a deed....no different then a title to a car.  the deed has the legal description of said property, it has a the coordinates of the location and a lot number as assigned to it by the state/county.

Assume the you decide to demolish said house and build another instead on the lot, how does that affect the deed? You tore down that 1000sqf house and built a 2000 sqf instead (All legal with all necessary permits) does it change the possession status of said property? not at the least.

Another case in point, Lets assume I have a 1975 Jeep cj5, the body is rusty so I order a new fiberglass or aluminium body, I swap in my vin tag, is that illegal?

Next I decide that I need a frame so I order a new(aftermarket) frame for it...is that illegal?

Next come the dana 60's 40 inch tires, the LS7....you get the picture.

The jeep has ZERO original components! yet it is still a 1975 Jeep cj5 and I still have a title in my name. this is how it works, there is no single part that I cannot change or replace affecting the legal status of said jeep other then one: the vin tag.

 

 

1) We don't have an MOT law that means we have to 'junk' anything. 

2) if that happens, you take your insurance payment, find another.  Or take the payment, fix the car.

The cars id is the chassis.  NO way of changing that.  By design the body/chassis is one, as a monocoque. Its the one part you cant change or replace.

The house argument just doesn't make sense as the cars a Monocoque, if it was separate chassis(land) and body(house), you could swap the house.

 

If I had car number 00007, it was total wreck, where only the chassis ID was hanging on but I had the title document.  copying/transfering that vin number onto another shell doesn't make that new car 00007.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Jason240z

[sweatybetty]

WOW!!!

[Mike]

2 hours ago, tzagi1 said:

Imagine that you have a 69 Dodge charger 440 4 speed, a priceless classic. during your regular weekend drive some asswipe sideswipes you on the passenger side crushing the monocoque. the body shop is quoting you $30000 to repair it OR you can pick up another body for $10000(just arbitrary numbers to make a point)....

What would you do?

If it's priceless, I would repair it to maintain the matching serial numbers.  Since the accident was caused by someone else, they will be paying the bill.

Quote

Don't get stuck on the "shell" thing  it's just another car part no different then a hood, roof, trunk ect.

Quote:" Its not the correct ID for that shell"

And? how is that different from any other part of said car? does changing the engine makes a car "incorrect"? how about the doors?

The shell is a vital part to a numbers matching (priceless) vehicle.  Other parts of the car, hood, windshield, doors, can be changed but if they are original the value would be higher.

Quote

Who determines what is "correct" and why does that matter?
A car is just a car, its an assembly for many metal and plastic components, it is given a unique serial number that is used by the government  to establish OWNERSHIP

If you are talking about value, the estimator will establish what is correct.  If you're talking law, it's the DMV.

Quote

no different then say... a house.

When you buy a house you are given a deed....no different then a title to a car.  the deed has the legal description of said property, it has a the coordinates of the location and a lot number as assigned to it by the state/county.

Assume the you decide to demolish said house and build another instead on the lot, how does that affect the deed? You tore down that 1000sqf house and built a 2000 sqf instead (All legal with all necessary permits) does it change the possession status of said property? not at the least.

A house typically sits on land, which are shown as two different entities on your deed.  It's much different than a title to a car.  Now, if you're talking about a house and changing the windows, for instance, this would be a better example.  In many cases, swapping the windows on a house will increase the value.  But if you demolish a house, the possession certainly changes.  You now become a landowner until the new house is built and a new deed can be created.

Quote

Another case in point, Lets assume I have a 1975 Jeep cj5, the body is rusty so I order a new fiberglass or aluminium body, I swap in my vin tag, is that illegal?

Next I decide that I need a frame so I order a new(aftermarket) frame for it...is that illegal?

Next come the dana 60's 40 inch tires, the LS7....you get the picture.

The jeep has ZERO original components! yet it is still a 1975 Jeep cj5 and I still have a title in my name. this is how it works, there is no single part that I cannot change or replace affecting the legal status of said jeep other then one: the vin tag.

You likely didn't tell them that it now has a new frame and body.  Legally, it's rolling around on an old VIN that needs to be approved by your local DMV.  They have processes to follow to maintain legal status.  I've seen some crazy stuff happen with people who import vehicles with mismatching VIN's and they've had to send the cars back.

m

[tzagi1]

3 hours ago, Jason240z said:

 

 

 

1. yes you do...seen plenty of range rovers selling for well less then a 1000 BP because they failed mot for rust.

2. Insurance? what if one does not have comprehensive? even if one did, would the insurance company pay the full value of a irreplaceable car?

the other parties insurance?  most only have up to $30k in property damage, mute point. you will never ever recover the value of your classic car by insurance.

Quote: The cars id is the chassis.  NO way of changing that.  By design the body/chassis is one, as a monocoque. Its the one part you cant change or replace.

How is that different then a body on frame design? are you suggesting that it's allowed to swap bodies and frames and retain the vin however if the body and frame are one piece you cannot? does that makes any sense?

Quote:The house argument just doesn't make sense as the cars a Monocoque, if it was separate chassis(land) and body(house), you could swap the house.

Once again, why should a monocoque be treated any differently than a body on frame design? what makes a car a car? the body? the frame? both? ether? perhaps it's nether.

[tzagi1]

Quote:  it's priceless, I would repair it to maintain the matching serial numbers.  Since the accident was caused by someone else, they will be paying the bill

On whose dime? the "clandestin " day laborer with no insurance that hit you? not to mention minimum state insurance covers up to $30k in physical damage, try to recover a $100k loss.

Quote:A house typically sits on land, which are shown as two different entities on your deed

Incorrect, the only time there are 2 "titles" is when you purchase a mobile with the land, you get a deed for the land and a title for the mobile.

A purchase of stick built comes with a deed only for both.

I'm done making arguments here. I'm tired.