Bowling For Columbine

[mdbrandy]

Moore is an idiot. See:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1209/059.html?_requestid=2372&_requestid=6287

and

http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html

for some critical takes on his "Documentary".

And as for the bank gun scene, it was staged. The first link above gives:

BANK: Moore says North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Mich., offered a deal where, "if you opened an account, the bank would give you a gun." He walks into a branch and walks out with a gun.

ACTUALLY: Moore didn't just walk in off the street and get a gun. The transaction was staged for cameras. You have to buy a long-term CD, then go to a gun shop to pick up the weapon after a background check.

I'm not saying we don't have too much violence and guns in the US, but don't get your information from Michael Moore.

[Bambikiller240]

He's baaack! OK, I'm not going to get into a long thread about 2nd Amendment rights. (Nope, Not gonna do it!) But, what is this crap about KMART? KMART is a huge department store chain and one of the departments in their stores is SPORTING GOODS. Ammunition for hunting and target shooting certainly comes under the heading of SPORTING GOODS. No big deal. KMART is subject to all of the Federal and State laws that ANY seller of guns and ammunition must obey. The bank where Mr. Moore received a gun for opening an account is an anomaly, not the norm. In most areas of the country that I am familiar with, you cannot take posession of a handgun until 10 days after the lawful purchase. A background check is done to verify that you are allowed to legally own the weapon. In CA you must take a Firearm Safety course in order to purchase a handgun (or prove that you have already passed one recently).

There are problems in the USA. Some people have no respect for the rights of other people, some people have no respect for other people period. Some of these social misfits have not been taught how to behave as civilzed beings. Then there are the one who are on the fringes of society, the "Thugs and Drugs" folks. These gems have rotted their brains on chemicals and just don't give a $^!# about anyone or anything. It is not the weapons that are at fault for many of the shooting deaths. It's the A-holes who use them. Generally these are not legal gun owners, they are people who acquire stolen weapons and use them to commit crimes to feed habits and egos. These people are a significant problem for society with or without guns and should be dealt with by the law enforcement community. Harshly!

The areas around airports are usually low income areas (who WANTS to live near an runway?) and often suffer many problems like drugs and other social problems including all manner of violence. Were those 12 people drug dealers, thieves, or innocent by-standers just hanging around car parks? Don't judge our whole country by these small areas. PS, don't believe everything you hear from cab drivers. It's not like they are Rhodes Scholars! (well, maybe Rhodes Scholars are a bad example ) Cab drivers aren't always Boy Scouts.

I have lived in the CA suburbs for 50+ years. My front door is often left unlocked all night long. In the summer, the doors and windows are left OPEN all night long and I've never had a problem with theft or violence. Of course, I am prepared to defend life and property in the event it becomes necessary, but I have not had the need to do so. Yet.

I do not hunt, but love to target shoot in isolated areas or rifle ranges under controlled conditions. It is a hobby that can give lots of satisfaction from the skill required to hit your target, and to maintain finely crafted machinery. It is not unlike the enjoyment one can get from driving a Z quickly and precisely, and maintaining the car properly as well.

Zvoiture: I agree whole-heartedly with your last post, except that I would change the last sentence to read as follows......"I hope that we continue to have a government that will protect my right to defend myself and my property from those people described above who seek to violate my right to live safely in peace and harmony with my neighbors."

BTW, yes I've opened a few cans of beans with a 30.06, and a .223 as well. An M1 Garand will make a gallon jug of water leap about 3 feet in the air too. Shot an AK-47 once also. KAA-RAZY!

Remember, Gun Control is hitting what you aim at, and nothing else.

[2ManyZs]

For anyone who thinks outlawing guns will stop crime only has to look at England, which has some of the strictest anti-gun laws in the world.

Did it stop crime completely? Nope, cuz for every legal gun purchase by an honest, law-abiding citizen, ten guns are sold on a street corner by a drug dealer, thief or what have you....

The old saying is as true in todays society as it was in the past:

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

What's next, they gonna outlaw all kinds of knives too? Even a kitchen utensil could be used to commit a crime...

Then they gonna outlaw every type of sharp hand tool? Axes? Shovels? If they start, there will be no stopping the wacko's who think that guns are causing all our problems. It's the politicians and lawyers who are putting these people back on the streets after they have been "rehabilitated" that are what keeps crime rampant on the streets of most major cities....

Arguing this is like arguing politics or religion, there are no rights or wrongs, and no winners either...

[Z Kid]

I still reckon Australia has the most tight arse gun laws, at least in england you don't need to do a gun safety course to buy a bb gun . No semi autos either, unless you have a good reason, if you want to kill people you have to slide the bolt home after each shot, or just buy a black market firearm.

Opinons are like assholes, everyone has (or is) one, and has a right to make theirs heard.

I can see however that maybe Mr Moore is not as straight up and down as he would like people to think.

One a more light hearted note, Who would want to live next to an airport? Did you get the Aussie movie "The Castle" you must go out and watch it if its available, it shows just who wants to live next to an airport.

Cheers Chris

PS Our K-Marts sporting section includes things such as shoes, golf sticks, cricket bats (the bit of willow which is flat on one side and you hit a leather coated ball with it), real footballs as well but nothing explosive.

PPS They are finally changing our laws so people don't get done for murder when you shoot them stealing your lifes work. There has been a case where a person sued a home owner because they cut their wrists open whilst climbing in through a broken window.

Well I have now said all I wanted to say, not sure if it was 2 cents, but unless we start talking about the castle, that is all I have to say

[That Ozzy Guy]

Originally posted by 2ManyZs

For anyone who thinks outlawing guns will stop crime only has to look at England, which has some of the strictest anti-gun laws in the world.

Did it stop crime completely? Nope, cuz for every legal gun purchase by an honest, law-abiding citizen, ten guns are sold on a street corner by a drug dealer, thief or what have you....

So you might as well give the guns out. It's a hopeless situation, why bother trying to control it. Besides, you have a free country so it's your God given right to shoot your neighbour if you want to.

What's next, they gonna outlaw all kinds of knives too? Even a kitchen utensil could be used to commit a crime...

Then they gonna outlaw every type of sharp hand tool? Axes? Shovels?

I'm afraid that argument does not work well with me. I can use my hands to kill a person, or a lighter, or a spoon, or rat poison, or alcohol but none of those things were designed as a tool of murder just as your examples were not. Guns were.

Arguing this is like arguing politics or religion, there are no rights or wrongs, and no winners either...

Damned right you are there.

Forgive my post, I hate including myself in these pointless arguments so I'll just show myself out.

[Bambikiller240]

On a light (non serious) note, I like Chris Rock's idea that bullets should cost $5000 each. Then people will make sure they only shoot people they really hate. If someone pisses you off you'll think twice before shooting. May even have to save up (lay-a-way plan?) to purchase a bullet. By then you will probably calm down enough to just kick their arse instead of shooting them.

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by That Ozzy Guy

I'm afraid that argument does not work well with me. I can use my hands to kill a person, or a lighter, or a spoon, or rat poison, or alcohol but none of those things were designed as a tool of murder just as your examples were not. Guns were.

Gun do have legitimate uses, as in hunting, or sport (target)shooting. Hunting is not murder to many people and "Murder" is not the sole purpose of a gun. They can and often are used to defend ones self from "Murderous" persons.

But, really does it matter whether an instrument was designed to do a particular thing, or something else? It is the actions of the person wielding any instrument that allow it to be used for good or bad. A cooking spoon used to disembowel someone is just as lethal as a shotgun.

Now days if mass manufactured guns were outlawed, dishonest machinists could and would design and produce weapons in small quantities in any well equiped metal working shop. Then we'd really have trouble as there would be no regulation at all on gun sales and procurement.

Originally posted by That Ozzy Guy

Forgive my post, I hate including myself in these pointless arguments so I'll just show myself out.

I'm following you out the door George. I haven't the strength to wage this battle. I know what works for me and I won't be giving up my guns anytime soon, but to each his own opinion.

Just knock loudly before entering my unlocked door, for your own safety.

[Alfadog]

To quote a certain "Ali G", why dont they just make the gun barrels all too big for the bullets? Or better yet make the bullets too big to fit in the guns!?

Sure it's not guns who kill people, it's the "A-holes"... but it astonishes me how many "A-holes" America produces compared to other countries.......... what other country can claim as many school shootings as America? There is some certain factor about the society in America which seems to produce a hell of a lot of A-holes. Surely you cannot argue that?

Removing guns from the equation will work, but it's a bit like the road deaths problem with governments trying to implement as many speed cameras as possible to totally eliminate speeding from the equation. No speeding = no deaths. Similar thing with no guns = no deaths... not entirely true is it.

I'm sure many of you agree that speeding is NOT the cause of many road-related deaths ...It helps though. Guns are not the cause of murders and very confused teenagers killing others at school... but it helps...

I'm not trying to be a part of this argument either, I just thought my speeding/guns analogy was kinda nifty

I don't know much when it comes to gun laws and gun-related death numbers etc.

[cam0063]

An interesting topic and will always find division on who sides what way with their thoughts and beliefs... Me being someone who likes to talk, with throw in a few words Just thinking aloud here....

I have been lucky in that I have traveled a bit of the world, met people from many interesting and not so interesting cultures... Interesting to me I mean Many people believe banning guns reduces crime!!! I am not one of them, there is much more to it... There were more firearms being used for hunting and sporting purposes prior to the 1970s/80s than there are now. Why is it that crime was lower then than it is now? Obviously there are a lot of other issues there that affect armed crime today......

"Guns were designed as tools of murder"? mmmmmm. Michael Diamond our Games champ may disagree with you there... I think the rat poison has the edge!

Yes, we have very strict gun laws here in this country. Are they working to reduce crime, nope! I have a friend at the Bureau of Statistics, he says the real figures are not the same as the Govt enhanced ones and has shown me. Many would be surprised! Crimes involving firearms havenot fallen as the public are lead to believe. In many cases, far from it! just read the papers...

Historically the majority of firearms used in armed crime here are unlicensed/black market guns! No surprise there, why would a person committing a crime use a licensed firearm! They wouldn`t unless they are mentally unstable. If they are then it doesn`t matter, they will use anything to complete their task!!! Aussies in general havenot used firearms often for self defence purposes. In West Aust, you as the general public have never been allowed to license a firearm for Self-defence purposes! Try and use a firearm to defend yourself from an armed criminal and see how long you stay out of jail! You could count the minutes. Is a very grey area here - Self defence... Break into my house and you will probably be met by a piece of hickory or a nice piece of walnut. Naturally your finger prints will be on the handle, not mine

Yes, in 1996 we saw the banning of semi automatic rifles and shotguns. Banned from the licensed firearm users! Not from the criminals or the black market... It hasn`t proved successful! You are no safer now than you were 5 years ago! We in the West had a State firearms licensing system, where user and firearm are recorded on a Govt database. Prior to the national firearm confiscation, much of the country didn`t! When it came time to hand in your confiscated firearm, who did? West Aussies did, you had no choice, but Many interstate didn`t, that is well known! Did criminals hand in their firearms - I don`t think so! Since the National firearm confiscation we have seen the number of firearms on the black market escalate!!! It is easier now to buy an unlicensed firearm than it was prior to the Gun Confiscation.... Who buys black market firearms? Not your sporting shooter or hunter!

I read recently that the state of Victoria has seen armed crime increase 300% [am checking that now] since 1996! As an aside - How did a military assault rifle banned prior to 1996, handed in to Victorian Police for destruction, later end up in Tasmania and used for a most horrific mass murder? Used by a fellow with the IQ of a stone, a guy who was able to shoot better than our elite SAS or U.S Special Forces!!!! We never did get the full investigation into that one......

How does banning firearms reduce crime? No Idea, I have not seen it work! Not to say that everyone should be armed to the teeth, but there is far more to the issue than banning firearms from licensed law abiding shooters!!!

cheers from down this way....

ps: a few quotes that stick in my mind.

"I am more afraid of the guy who sets out with one round in the magazine, than a guy with 30!!!!

"The guy who owns a licensed firearm is not a criminal. The criminal is the same guy who allows his son or daughter to take it to school!!!"

pps: Yep, there is a few "A-Holes" in the U.S. I watched an interview last year with a school girl recovering from horrific burns. She was covered in fuel and set alight by a fellow school mate. Where was this - here in Australia!!! We have them here too. Arseholes have no boundaries, neither does crime!!!!

[Zvoiture]

] http://omgwtf.superlime.com/madness.swf

[Bambikiller240]

Originally posted by Zvoiture

http://omgwtf.superlime.com/madness.swf '>This should end the conversation.....

steve77

Steve:

The link doesn't work

[Zvoiture]

I modified it...It's really weird..Ihave never had it do that before...show the title and link n the same line and not work...Hmmmmm